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>> THE STATE OF WISCONSIN HAS
THE FOURTH LARGEST AMISH
POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY.
HERE TO GIVE US HIS INSIGHT INTO
THE HISTORY AND CULTURE OF THE
AMISH IS AUTHOR RICHARD LEE
DAWLEY.
HE'S MY SPECIAL GUEST NEXT ON "I
REMEMBER."
>> HI, I'M JIM PECK.
WELCOME TO "I REMEMBER."
JOINING ME TONIGHT IS AUTHOR
RICHARD LEE DAWLEY.
A FORMER TEACHER, HE'S HERE TO
SHARE HIS EXPERIENCE GETTING TO
KNOW A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE
A SIMPLE LIFE -- THE AMISH.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.
>> WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE
AMISH?
PERHAPS YOU THINK OF THE
WONDERFUL QUILTS MANY ARE KNOWN
TO MAKE.
OR APPRECIATE THE HAND-CRAFTED
FURNITURE SKILLS OF OTHER
MEMBERS.
DO YOU WONDER WHY SOME PEOPLE
CHOOSE TO TRAVEL BY HORSE AND
BUGGY INSTEAD OF DRIVING A CAR?
AMISH IS A RELIGION AND AMISH
CULTURE IS BASED ON THEIR FAITH.
THEIR ANABAPTIST CHRISTIAN
HERITAGE DATES BACK TO EUROPE.
LED BY JAKOB AMMANN, THEY
SEPARATED FROM OTHER ANABAPTISTS
IN THE LATE 17th CENTURY.
THE AMISH FIRST CAME TO THE
UNITED STATES IN THE EARLY
1700'S, AND MANY SETTLED IN
PENNSYLVANIA.
ALTHOUGH THE AMISH ARE OFTEN
ASSOCIATED WITH LANCASTER
COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA, TODAY
THERE ARE SLIGHTLY MORE AMISH
LIVING IN OHIO THAN
PENNSYLVANIA.
INDIANA IS THIRD AND WISCONSIN
RANKS FOURTH IN STATES WITH AN
AMISH POPULATION.
IN 1909, THE FIRST AMISH
COMMUNITY IN WISCONSIN WAS
SETTLED NEAR EXPANSION OF
-- NEAR EXELAND IN SAWYER
COUNTY.
SINCE THE 1960'S, THERE HAS BEEN
A HUGE GROWTH IN AMISH
COMMUNITIES IN THE STATE.
THE LARGEST IS IN CASHTON IN
MONROE COUNTY, AND THE SECOND
BIGGEST IS THE KINGSTON AREA IN
GREEN LAKE COUNTY.
NOT ALL AMISH FOLLOW THE SAME
WAYS OF LIFE.
IN ADDITION TO OLD ORDER AMISH,
THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE
LESS STRICT ABOUT TRADITIONAL
CUSTOMS.
ADIN YUTZY, A CONSERVATIVE AMISH
MENNONITE, HAD A ROLE IN A
FAMOUS COURT CASE THAT BEGAN IN
NEW GLARUS, WISCONSIN.
YUTZY AND TWO OLD ORDER AMISH
PARENTS, JONAS YODER AND WALLACE
MILLER, WERE FINED FOR NOT
SENDING THEIR CHILDREN TO HIGH
SCHOOL, AS THE COMPULSORY
EDUCATION LAW REQUIRED
ATTENDANCE UNTIL AGE 16.
FORMAL EDUCATION PAST THE EIGHTH
GRADE IS CONTRARY TO AMISH
BELIEFS.
IN DECIDING WISCONSIN V. YODER,
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT IN 1972
SIDED WITH THE AMISH PARENTS,
AFFIRMING THE LAW IMPEDED THEIR
FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION.
AUTHOR RICHARD LEE DAWLEY HAS
MADE MANY FRIENDS IN THE AMISH
COMMUNITY.
HE GIVES OTHERS AN UNDERSTANDING
OF THE AMISH THROUGH HIS
LECTURES AND GUIDED TOURS.
"AMISH IN WISCONSIN, AN
ANECDOTAL JOURNAL," IS JUST ONE
OF HIS MANY BOOKS.
HE'S WRITTEN A NUMBER OF BOOKS
ON ANABAPTISTS, INCLUDING
MENNONITES AND HUTTERITES, AS
WELL AS THE AMISH.
>> IN PREPARING FOR THIS SHOW,
RICHARD, I WAS THINKING ABOUT
ALL THE THINGS I'VE HEARD ABOUT
AT AMISH, LEGENDS, STORIES,
MYTHS, WHATEVER.
AND I THOUGHT, WHY DON'T WE TALK
ABOUT SOME OF THEM.
OK.
NUMBER ONE, WE DON'T WANT THE
AMISH HERE BECAUSE THEY DON'T
PAY TAXES.
>> THAT'S NUMBER ONE ON THE LIST
AS FAR AS THE AMISH ARE
CONCERNED AND I GET REMINDED OF
THAT EVERY TIME I GO TO A
VILLAGE, ESPECIALLY DOWN AROUND
PARDEEVILLE, THAT'S WHERE I
HEARD IT FROM AN AMISH WOMAN
HERSELF AND SHE THANKED ME AFTER
I MADE A PRESENTATION THERE THAT
THAT'S THE NUMBER ONE SHE'S
CONCERNED ABOUT TOO AND THE ONLY
REASON FOR THAT MAY BE THE FACT
THAT THEY HAVE THEIR CHURCH IN
THEIR HOME.
BECAUSE OF THAT THEY MAY BE
RELIEVED OF TAXES ON THEIR
PROPERTY.
THERE'S NO TRUTH TO IT, AND THE
ONLY OTHER THING I THINK OF IS
THAT THE PEOPLE WHO GENERATE
THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS JUST
DON'T LIKE THE AMISH.
>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND -- I'VE
NEVER UNDERSTOOD THAT, BUT
THAT'S A WHOLE SHOW IN ITSELF.
WHAT IT IS ABOUT THE AMISH THAT
YOU WOULDN'T LIKE AND ANOTHER
THING I'VE HEARD, THEY DON'T PAY
SOCIAL SECURITY.
>> IN FACT, THEY DO PAY SOCIAL
SECURITY IF THEY WORK FOR AN
EMPLOYER WHO HAS TO DEDUCT FOR
IT ANYWAY.
THAT MONEY, IS USED, IT COULD BE
APPLIED FOR IF A MAN HAS, OR A
WOMAN HAS 40 QUARTERS, THEY'RE
ELIGIBLE FOR SOCIAL SECURITY.
HOWEVER, IT'S NOT THE -- IT'S
NOT THE HOPE OF THE COMMUNITY
THAT THEY'RE GOING TO RELY ON
OUTSIDE MONEY RATHER THAN BE
SELF-SERVING AND MAKE THEIR
MONEY ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY.
ONE CASE I KNOW FOR SURE DID
HAPPEN, AND THE MAN ASKED THE
BISHOP, I HAVE 40 QUARTERS, AND
I HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY MONEY
THERE, MY LEG WAS AMPUTATED, I
CAN'T WORK IN THE FIELDS, I
WONDER IF I COULD A APPLY FOR
THAT MONEY THAT BELONGS TO ME.
>> HE WAS ASKING FOR PERMISSION?
>> HE WAS ASKING FOR PERMISSION.
AND THE BISHOP SAID, YOU MAY.
AND SO HE DID.
SECOND CASE THOUGH IS A MAN WHO
THOUGHT HE'D FOLLOW THE LINE
THAT HE SAW HAPPENING, TRIED THE
SAME THING, AND THE BISHOP SAID,
TELL YOU WHAT.
YOU'VE GOT 40 QUARTERS AN YOU
MADE ALL THIS MONEY AND YOU'RE
CERTAINLY ENTITLED TO IT.
YOU APPLY FOR IT.
AND WHEN YOU GET THE CHECK IN
THE MAIL, YOU SIGN YOUR NAME AT
THE TOP, AS ENDORSING IT, AND
SIGN MY NAME AS THE DEACON, AND
I'LL PUT THAT IN THE BANK, SO
THAT WE CAN SHARE IT AMONG THE
COMMUNITY AND I THINK THAT'S A
GOOD WAY OF LOOKING AT IT.
>> SO THERE IS A COMMUNAL POT,
IF YOU WILL.
>> EXACTLY.
>> AND IT'S THE DEACON WHO
OVERSEES THAT.
>> HE HAS THE BANK ACCOUNTS.
>> OK.
>> AND HE HEALS THE CHECKBOOK
AND THE SAVINGS ACCOUNT.
I ONLY KNOW OF ONE ARTICLE THAT
WAS IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES"
SAYING THAT SOME COMMUNITIES
THERE, DABBLE IN MARKET FUNDS.
NOW THAT'S UNUSUAL AND I HAVEN'T
HEARD IT ANYWHERE ELSE.
>> ANOTHER THING THAT I'VE HEARD
IS THAT THE AMISH WILL NOT ALLOW
THEMSELVES TO BE PHOTOGRAPHED
UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
>> WELL, IN THE CASE OF
WISCONSIN, IN SOME CASES, YOU
HAVE TO HAVE, I UNDERSTAND IT, A
PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN.
SOMETIMES THEY WILL NOT ALLOW
THAT TO HAPPEN.
OTHER TIMES, THERE'S SOME LEEWAY
AMONG THE ELDERS TO SAY FOR THIS
PURPOSE, WE'LL LET IT GO AHEAD.
>> WHY IS THERE AN AVERSION
AMONG THE AMISH TO BEING
PHOTOGRAPHED?
>> PRIDEFULNESS.
YOU'RE TOO PROUD TO BE IN A
PICTURE.
>> REALLY?
>> AND YET, IN PENNSYLVANIA, IN
LANCASTER, PENNSYLVANIA, I
VISITED THERE AND AS I WALKED IN
TO THE KITCHEN, IT LOOKED VERY
MUCH NORMAL TO WHAT I WOULD
HAVE, BUT THEN I WALKED IN TO
THE LIVING ROOM, AND IN THE
LIVING ROOM, IN THE CORNER, WAS
A GRAND PIANO, AND THERE WAS
CARPETING ON THE FLOOR, AND
THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHS ALL
AROUND THE ROOM ON THE WALLS,
AND THEY WERE OF AUNTS AND
UNCLES AND COUSINS, BROTHERS AND
SISTERS AND GRANDCHILDREN.
>> SO THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS?
>> AS LONG AS THE BISHOP DOESN'T
SEE IT, I SUPPOSE.
>> WE'LL GET IN TO THE STRUCTURE
OF THEIR RELIGION, BECAUSE
THAT'S FASCINATING TO ME AS W.
ONE -- AS WELL.
ONE MORE OF THESE THINGS, THE
AMISH WILL NOT SERVE IN THE
MILITARY.
>> THEY WILL NOT VOLUNTARILY
SERVE IN THE MILITARY.
DURING A TIME -- EVEN IN THE
REVOLUTIONARY WAR, YOU COULD OPT
OUT IF YOU WERE AN ENGLISH
PERSON, IN OTHER WORDS, NOT
AMISH, YOU COULD OPT OUT BY
PAYING FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO TAKE
YOUR SPOT IN THE DRAFT.
>> TRUE.
THAT'S TRUE OF THE CIVIL WAR AS
WELL.
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
WELL, IN CURRENT TIMES, IF YOU
ARE ON THE DRAFT BOARD, AND YOU
ARE DRAFTED, YOUR TASK THEN IS
TO GO BEFORE THAT DRAFT BOARD
AND TO PLEAD YOUR CASE, AND TO
TRY TO PERSUADE THE BOARD TO
KNOW THAT YOU ARE A GOD-FEARING
PERSON WHO JUST CANNOT CARRY A
RIFLE AND SHOOT AND KILL
SOMEBODY.
IF THAT BE THE CASE, THEN THE
BOARD HAS TO CONSIDER IT AND
THEN CAN GIVE YOU THAT
CONSCIOUSNESS OBJECTOR STATUS
THAT WE'VE HAD FOR A LONG TIME.
THAT KIND OF ASSIGNMENT MIGHT BE
THEN THAT YOU WOULD BE PLACED IN
PERHAPS A HOSPITAL.
>> RIGHT.
>> AND YOU WOULD PROVIDE SERVICE
THEN TO -- FOR THE TERM OF THE
TIME THAT YOU SHOULD SPEND.
YOU WOULD BE PAID FOR IT, BUT
THAT'S YOUR CONSCIOUSOUS
OBJECTIVE ALTERNATIVE.
>> YOU'RE NOT CARRYING A WEAPON
AND FIRING IT AT ANYBODY.
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
>> WHO ARE THE AMISH.
>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
>> THAT'S A HALF-HOUR SHOW.
>> WE'LL TAKE AMISH AND GIVE IT
A DESCRIPTION FOR EACH OF THE
LETTERS.
>> PERFECT.
>> IT COMES FROM A MAN BY THE
NAME OF JAKOB AMMANN, IS THE
SPELLING OF IT, WHICH WAS
SHORTED THEN TO AMISH, WHEN HE
REALLY BROKE I A WAY FROM THE
MENNONITES IN EUROPE IN THE
1500'S AND FORM HIS OWN GROUP.
HE FELT THAT THE MENNONITES WERE
TOO LAX AND YET, THERE'S A GROUP
TODAY CALLED OLD ORDER
MENNONITES THAT LIVE IN THE
NORTHERN PART OF WISCONSIN AND
THERE'S OVER 400 OF THEM, THAT
DRIVE AND HORSE AND BUGGIES,
THAT WEAR BLACK CLOTHES THAT THE
MEN ARE CLEAN SHAVEN, WHICH IS
AN UNUSUAL OPPOSITE TO WHAT THE
AMISH DO, AND WHERE WERE WE
GOING WITH THAT?
>> WHO THEY ARE.
>> THAT WAS THE --
>> THAT'S WHO THEY ARE.
>> THAT WAS THE SPLIT, AND
THAT'S WHERE THE AMISH THEN
BEGAN THEIR WHOLE HISTORY.
>> AND YOU SAID EUROPE.
WHEREABOUTS IF EUROPE?
>> SCHLEITHEIM, SWITZERLAND.
THEY HELD A CONFERENCE THERE
AMONG SOME OF THE LEADERS AND I
THINK IT WAS IN 1525 THAT THEY
WROTE THE SCHLEITHEIM
CONFESSION, WHICH WAS AN
AMALGAMATION OF ALL THE LEADERS
AROUND THAT SETTLED ON WHAT THEY
AGREED THAT THE AMISH WOULD BE.
>> THIS IS AROUND THE TIME OF
THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION IF I
REMEMBER MY HISTORY.
>> IT WAS EIGHT YEARS AFTER
LUTHER NAILED HIS THESES ON THE
DOOR AT WITTENBURG CHURCH, SO
THIS WAS AN OFFSPRING OF THAT.
BUT SWITZERLAND WAS AN
INTERESTING PLACE TOO, BECAUSE
THE REFORMED PEOPLE THERE WERE
CHANGING EVEN THE CHURCH
CATHOLIC BUILDINGS.
THEY WERE TAKING DOWN THE
STATUES.
>> RIGHT.
>> THEY WERE TAKING DOWN
PICTURES AND EVERYTHING ELSE, TO
MAKE IT VERY MUCH MORE PLAIN.
THAT WAS THE REFORM GROUP.
THAT WAS ULRICH SWINGLEY THAT
WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT.
>> WHEN DID THE AMISH COME TO
AMERICA?
>> ONE OF THE BIGGEST IMPORTS
WAS IN 1720.
>> THAT EARLY.
>> YES.
THERE WERE SOME BEFORE THAT, BUT
NOT AS LARGE A GROUP OF 1720'S.
THERE'S SOME MISUNDERSTANDING, I
HAVE, AS TO WHETHER THEY ALL
CAME INTO THE BOSTON HARBOR, OR
THEY CAME TO NEW ORLEANS.
I'VE HEARD SOME PEOPLE SAY NEW
ORLEANS, AND I DON'T KNOW WHY,
WHY GO UP RIVER ON THE
MISSISSIPPI TO GET BACK TO THIS
AREA, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO
AMISH, THERE WERE NO AMISH IN
THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE UNITED
STATES.
SO WHEN THEY GOT TO
PENNSYLVANIA, THAT'S WHERE THEY
REALLY SETTLED IN, ONLY BECAUSE
THERE WAS AN INVITATION SENT BY
A MAN WHO I BELIEVE HIS FIRST
NAME WAS PENN,.
>> HIS LAST NAME WAS PENN, HIS
FIRST NAME WAS WILLIAM.
>> AND HIS SYLVANIA WAS JUST
WOODLAND.
NEEDED SOME PEOPLE TO WORK ON
HIS FARMS AND HE HAD A LOT OF
ACREAGE, AND I BELIEVE HE EVEN
WENT TO EUROPE TO TRY TO RECRUIT
THESE PEOPLE, BECAUSE HE HAD
HEARD SOME VERY GOOD COMMENTS
ABOUT THEM, THAT THEY WERE GOOD
FARMERS, AND THEY COULD -- ONE
OF THE STORIES, THEY COULD
CHANGE SWAMP LAND INTO
PRODUCTIVE LAND.
I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS TRUE.
SO THAT'S HOW THEY GOT THEIR
START.
>> AND THEY WERE SOMEWHAT
PACIFIST OUTLOOK TO APPEAL TO
WILLIAM PENN.
>> IT WOULD AND THE QUACKERS AS
WELL, SO THE PEACE CHURCHES WERE
BOTH IN THAT EFFORT.
>> WHY DO YOU THINK THE AMISH
ARE SO FASCINATING TO THOSE OF
US WHO AREN'T AMISH?
>> IT DEPENDS ON IF YOU'RE
TALKING TO A MAN OR A WOMAN.
>> OK.
>> IF YOU TALK TO A MAN, THEY
WOULD SAY WELL, YEAH, THEY'RE
GOOD MECHANICS, THE GUYS ARE OUT
THERE IN THE FIELD AND THEY KNOW
HOW TO GROW CROPS AND TAKE CARE
OF THEIR CATTLE, AND THAT'S ONE
SIDE OF IT.
THE WOMAN MIGHT SAY, OH, THOSE
DEAR CHILDREN, THEY ARE SO CUT
HE WILLY -- CUDDLY AND THE
CLOTHES THEY WEAR AND THEY'RE SO
POLITE, SO I THINK THEY'RE
GLAMORIZED A LITTLE MORE THAN
WHAT THE MEN DO.
>> THEY'RE A FEW TELEVISION
SHOWS, NOT LONG AGO AS WE TAPED
THIS, THERE WAS A SHOW ON THE
AMISH, THESE BEEN AN AMERICAN
EXPERIENCE, THE THINGS BREAKING
AMISH PEOPLE WHO LEFT, AND I
WOULD LIKE TO GET IN TO THAT A
LITTLE BIT TOO AND THEN THERE'S
THE AMISH MAFIA.
IS THERE AN AMISH MAFIA.
>> NOT THAT I KNOW OF AND I
DON'T KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE ON
THE SHOW WERE AMISH OR EVER HAD
BEEN.
>> I WONDER HOW MANY AMISH WILLE
ON A SHOW WITH KEY CURING
TELEVISION SHOWS.
>> I DOUBT IT.
>> LEBANON LEVI, IT'S JUST A
MYTH.
>> HE'S AS MUCH A MYTH AS YOU
AND I ARE AMISH.
>> WHAT DO THE AMISH CALL US?
>> THEY CALL US ENGLISH, BECAUSE
WE SPEAK ENGLISH FOR THE MOST
PART AND THAT'S THE EASIEST
DISTINCTION THAT THEY CAN PUT IN
AN EASY FORM.
THAT WE ARE ENGLISH AND THEY
CALL US ENGLISH.
>> AND THEY -- DO THEY STILL
SPEAK PRIMARILY GERMAN OR SUBSET
OF GERMAN.
>> PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH IS A
COMBINATION OF OLD GERMAN AND
THEN A LITTLE FEW ENGLISH WORDS,
MET -- CHANGED A BIT, AND
THEY'RE QUITE LINGUAL IN THE
GERMAN AND THEN THERE'S THE
SWISS.
HIGH GERMAN LUTHERANS HAND, HOCH
DEUTSCHE IS USED IN THE MORE
FORMAL THINGS.
I THINK LUTHER'S BIBLE MAY HAVE
BEEN WRITTEN IN IT.
THE PLOT DEUTSCHE IS THE MORE
LEVEL, EASY GOING CONVERSATION.
>> THE LOW COUNTRY.
>> AND WHEN YOU SALO COUNTRY,
I'VE LOOKED FOR THAT AND SOME
PEOPLE SAY, WELL, IT'S THE LOW
DOWN PEOPLE OR THEY SAY IT'S THE
LOW PART OF THE LAND.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE TO
BELIEVE.
>> I DON'T KNOW.
BUT THE -- IT'S FASCINATING TO
ME, IT'S FASCINATING TO SO MANY
PEOPLE, AND WE SEE THEM, YOU
KNOW, THE COUNTRY ROADS WITH
THE -- WITH THE BUGGIES, DO THEY
EVER USE MACHINES?
>> THEY USE MACHINERY.
>> THEY DO?
>> ONE OF THE MAIN SOURCES OF
POWER, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A WOOD
SHOP, THERE'S A WONDERFUL WOOD
SHOP IN -- THE NAME OF THE
SETTLEMENT IS KINGSTON AND IT'S
NORTH OF HERE NEAR GREEN LAKE.
HE ACTUALLY MAKES FURNITURE FOR
A COMPANY THAT I SPONSORED THEM
FOR AND THE IT'S THE P.M.
BEDROOM GALLERY, PENNY MUSTARD.
HE HAS ONE DIESEL ENGINE THAT'S
IN A ROOM, MAKES A TERRIBLE
RACKET, BUT WITH A SERIES OF
PULLIES AND SHAFTS, CALLED LINE
SHAFTS THAT ARE IN THE CONCRETE
OF THE FLOORING, COVERED WITH
BOARDS, IT GOES TO EACH OF THE
MACHINES IN THAT SHOP.
SO THAT IF YOU WANT TO TURN ON
THIS LATHE, THEN YOU JUST PULL A
HANDLE WHICH ENGAGES THE BELTS
THAT ARE IN THAT, THAT PICK UP
THE ENERGY FROM THOSE
DRIVESHAFTS THAT ARE COMING FROM
THE DIESEL ENGINE THAT'S IN THE
OTHER ROOM.
IT'S A FASCINATING ARRANGEMENT,
AND VERY MANY AMISH HAVE THAT
KIND OF A SETUP.
>> TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE
STRUCTURE OF THE AMISH CHURCHES.
WHO IS IN CHARGE, WHO'S SECOND,
ETC.?
>> BECAUSE IT'S A CHRISTIAN
CHURCH, THEY WILL HAVE A BISHOP
THAT'S AT THE TOP OF THAT ELDER
GROUP.
USUALLY, TWO MINISTERS TO DO THE
MINISTERING, TO DO THE SERMONS
AND THEN THE DEACON.
AND THE BISHOP IS KIND OF LOOKED
AT AS THE FOCAL POINT THAT MAKES
ALL THE DECISIONS.
THAT'S NOT REALLY TRUE.
MY INTERPRETATION OF THAT, FROM
WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED, IS IF A
BISHOP MAKES ALL THE DECISIONS,
IT WON'T BE LONG BEFORE HIS
PEOPLE WILL BEGIN TO DRIFT.
>> OH, REALLY?
>> DRIFT AWAY, AND JOIN OTHER
GROUPS.
>> HOW DOES ONE BECOME A BISHOP,
IS HE ELECTED OR CALLED?
>> THE REASON THEY HAVE THE TWO
MINISTERS IS THERE IS A
CONSENSUS BETWEEN THOSE ELDERS
AS TO WHICH OF THOSE TWO WOULD
BE REPLACEMENT OF THE BISHOP.
>> I SEE.
>> THAT'S THE ONLY
INTERPRETATION.
>> IS THERE SORT OF A BISHOP IN
CHARGE, A POPE, IF YOU WILL.
>> WOULDN'T WANT TO PUT HIMSELF
IN THAT POSITION.
>> I'M SURE NOT, BUT IS THERE --
SAY THE ARCHBISHOP OF
CANTERBURY, WHATEVER IT MIGHT
BE.
>> NOTHING LIKE THAT.
THE CONGREGATIONS, IN EACH OF
THE COMMUNITIES, FOR INSTANCE,
THE KINGSTON COMMUNITY, HAS 12
CHURCH DISTRICTS, SO EACH ONE OF
THE DISTRICTS WILL HAVE A
MINISTER, TWO BISHOPS AND A
DEACON.
THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES.
THERE IS NO HIERARCHY IN
MADISON, THERE'S NO HIERARCHY IN
WASHINGTON, D.C., OR IN ROME.
IT'S ALL IN THAT LOCAL
CONGREGATION.
>> WHAT HAPPENS -- I'M AN
18-YEAR-OLD AMISH YOUNG MAN, AND
I WANT TO LEAVE.
HOW FREE AM I TO LEAVE?
>> HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTIZED YET?
>> IF I'M AMISH, I DON'T THINK
SO, HAVE I?
I THINK USUALLY -- DOESN'T
BAPTISM OCCUR LATER?
>> EXACTLY.
AND THEN YOU ARE AMISH, BUT
BEFORE THAT TIME, YOU'RE NOT
CONSIDERING REALLY AMISH.
>> REALLY?
>> YOU'LL BE CALLED AMISH, BUT
YOU HAVE NOT JOINED THE AMISH
CHRISTIAN CHURCH YET.
IF YOU HAVEN'T DO, DOING SOME OF
THESE THINGS THAT WE SEE AS
BEING AWRY, DOESN'T QUALIFY AS
ANYTHING THAT REALLY YOU'RE
GOING TO BE -- YOU CAN'T BE
KICKED OUT OF A CHURCH THAT YOU
HAVEN'T BELONGED TO.
>> OH, OK.
WHICH MAKES A GREAT DEAL OF
SENSE, BECAUSE YOU'RE ALLOWING
YOUNG PEOPLE -- WHAT IS -- IS
THE PHRASE --
>> RUMSPRINGA.
RUNNING AROUND IS THE
TRANSLATION THAT I HEARD ABOUT.
>> THEY GET A CHANCE TO BE
YOUNG.
>> YES, THEY DO.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I THINK I
SAW ONE, IT WAS A YOUNG LADY
THAT WAS STAYING AT A PLACE THAT
I STAY AT IN MIDDLE FLORIDA,
NEAR SARASOTA, A PLACE CALLED
PINE CRAFT AND I HAD RENTED A
TRAILER IN THE BACKYARD AND I
CAME BACK ONE DAY AROUND THE
SIDE OF THE HOUSE AND THEY'RE
HAD GIRL, THIS AMISH GIRL, WHO I
HAD SEEN IN WHITE CAP AND AMISH
CLOTHING, WAS TAKING A SUN BATH
ON THE REGULAR, OR A BLANKET,
WITH A BIKINI SUIT ON, THIS IS
RUMSPRINGA.
>> IT CERTAINLY IS.
AND SHE'S -- THAT'S OK?
>> WELL, HER PARENTS WEREN'T
THERE.
HER PARENTS, THEY USUALLY COME
DOWN FROM THE NORTHERN COUNTRIES
IN THE WINTERTIME.
>> THERE ARE AMISH SNOW BIRDS
YOU CALL THEM.
>> THAT'S WHAT I WROTE ABOUT.
>> YOU WROTE A BOOK WITH THAT
TITLE.
>> TWO.
I HAVE WROTE ONE CALLED AMISH
SNOW BIRDS, BUT THEN THE
MENNONITE FRIENDS I HAVE SAID
HOW COME YOU DON'T WRITE ABOUT
US MENNONITES, SO I WROTE
ANOTHER BOOK.
>> NOW LET'S SAY I HAVE BEEN
BAPTIZED AND I WANT TO DO
SOMETHING THAT FALLS OUT OF
THE -- OUT OF THE ROLE OF A
TYPICAL AMISH MAN.
IF I DO THAT, WHAT HAPPENS TO
ME?
>> THERE'S SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS
YOU WILL TALK TO A PERSON ONE
TIME AND IF THEY DO NOT RESPOND
TO THAT, YOU WILL HAVE ANOTHER
PERSON WITH YOU GO AND TALK TO
THAT PERSON IF THEY DON'T CHANGE
THEIR BEHAVIOR, OR WHATEVER IT
WAS, YOU COULD BE SHUNNED, YOU
COULD BE EX COMMUNICATED.
>> IS THAT -- ARE THOSE TWO
TERMS INTERCHANGEABLE?
>> THEY'RE NOT.
AND I SOMETIMES DON'T UNDERSTAND
WHICH COMES FIRST IN A GROUP.
BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS YOU ARE
SHUNNED FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF
TIME WITH A CERTAIN ACTIVITY,
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU MAY BE SHUNNED
FROM CHURCH SERVICE FOR A MONTH.
THAT MEANS TWO CHURCH SERVICES,
BECAUSE THEY HAVE CHURCH EVERY
OTHER WEEK.
SO -- BUT THEN THERE COULD BE
OTHERS THAT ARE MORE SERIOUS AND
YOU COULD BE OUT SHUNNED FOR A
YEAR.
I KNOW OF A MAN THAT HAS BEEN
SHUNNED FOR THAT LONG, BUT HAS
NEVER BEEN EX-COMMUNICATED
BECAUSE THEY'VE TRIED TO BRING
HIM BACK IN AND HE HAS BEEN
ALLOWED TO COME BACK TO A CHURCH
SERVICE, SEVERAL OF THEM.
>> THEN HE GOES BACK TO --
>> BUT HE GOES BACK TO HIS WAY
OF LIVING.
ONE OF THE MINOR THINGS WE STEAM
TO THINK OF IS -- SEEM TO THINK
OF IS CIGARETTE SMOKING.
HE SMOKES CIGARETTES.
ANOTHER THING IS, HE WEARS A
CORDUROY SHIRT I'VE SEEN HIM
WEAR.
THAT'S NOT THE KIND OF CLOTHING
YOU WEAR IN THAT COMMUNITY.
>> TOO FANCY?
>> WELL, YES, BUT THE COMMUNITY
DOWN IF IOWA I'VE BEEN TO IS THE
NORMAL, SO IT'S NOT A MATTER OF
OTHER PEOPLE'S WAY OF DRESSING.
>> YOU REALLY HAVE GOTTEN VERY
FAR IN TO THE AMISH COMMUNITY.
>> I HAVE.
>> HOW DID DO YOU THAT?
THEY'RE NOT THAT WELCOMING OF
PEOPLE TO GET THAT FAR IN.
>> I HAVE A QUALIFICATION THAT I
THINK HELPS ME.
AND THAT IS WHEN I WAS YOUNGER,
12 AND 13, I SPENT TWO SUMMERS
IN VIROQUA, WISCONSIN, WHERE MY
MOTHER -- MOTHER'S SISTER LIVED,
WITH HER HUSBAND, ON A FARM.
THEY HAD NO CHILDREN.
SO MY MOTHER AND FATHER FOUND IT
VERY CONVENIENT TO HAVE ME VISIT
THE RELATIVES.
>> AND THE RELATIVES LIKED IT.
>> THEY LOVED IT.
>> CHEAP LABOR.
>> AND THERE WAS NO PAY.
SO I BECAME ACCUSTOMED TO THE
WAY OF LIFE ON A FARM.
LATER, I WORKED -- I SHOULDN'T
SAY WORK, I WAS HONORED TO BE
ABLE TO LIVE WITH GREAT UNCLE,
WHO WAS SINGLE ALL HUSBAND LIFE,
CAME FROM WESTBY, WISCONSIN,
WHERE MY MOTHER WAS BORN AND
WORKED WITH TWO OTHER BROTHERS
FROM NORWAY, SO THREE OF THE
BACHELOR'S WORKED ON THE FOUR
ACRE FARM.
THAT WAS AN EXPERIENCE FOR ME.
>> NORWEGIAN BACHELOR FARMERS.
>> AMEN FOR THAT.
SO WHEN I GOT TO THIS POINT OF
SPEAKING TO AMISH, IT WAS NOT A
FOREIGN COUNTRY, IT WAS
SOMETHING THAT I WAS FAMILIAR
WITH AND I COULD UNDERSTAND.
>> AND THEY TRUSTED YOU ENOUGH.
>> I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY GET
THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR THAT.
THAT'S THEIR INSIGHT.
BUT I DO KNOW THAT THEY ARE
VERY, VERY WELL AT READING A
PERSON'S INTENTIONS.
VERY CAREFUL AND CAUTIOUS WHEN
THEY FIRST MEET SOMEBODY.
THEY'RE SIZING YOU UP.
AND IF THEY SEE THINGS THAT ARE
HONEST, STRAIGHTFORWARD, THEY
WILL EXTEND THEMSELVES TO YOU,
AND INVITE YOU EVEN TO COME AND
HAVE A MEAL.
>> I WOULD LOVE THAT PART.
I'VE HEARD WONDERFUL THINGS
ABOUT THE AMISH COOKING.
THERE'S A MAGAZINE, CALLED "OUR
WISCONSIN" AND THERE'S A
RECURRING ARTICLE IN THERE, BY
MR. YODER.
>> OWEN YODER.
>> YOU KNOW HIM.
>> THERE'S AS BAKERY THAT MAKES
AS GOOD A PEE CAN PIE I EVER
TASTED IN MY LIFE.
>> I THINK IF YOU WRITE AN
ARTICLE TO HIM, HE'LL SEND YOU A
PEE CAN PIE.
>> IF THEY ACCEPT AN ARTICLE IN
"OUR WISCONSIN," THAT'S HOW I
HAPPEN TO THAT.
I'M BRAGGING AGAIN, SORRY.
HOW MANY AMISH ARE THERE IN
WISCONSIN?
>> I ASK PEOPLE THAT WHEN I GO
OUT AND MAKE A PRESENTATION.
WHAT WOULD YOU GUESS, JIM?
>> A COUPLE OF THOUSAND.
>> 12,000 TO 15,000.
>> REALLY?
>> AND DEPENDING ON THE YEAR AND
DEPENDING ON WHAT THE
CALCULATIONS ARE, BETWEEN 12 AND
15,000.
THAT'S A LOT.
>> THAT'S MORE THAN I THOUGHT.
HOW MANY ARE THERE TOTAL, BOTH
IN AMERICA AND IN EUROPE?
>> THERE ARE NONE IN EUROPE.
>> NONE?
>> NONE.
THEY HAVE ALL LEFT.
WOULD YOU STAY IN A COUNTRY
WHERE YOU'VE BEEN BURNED AT THE
STAKE BECAUSE YOU'RE A HERETIC
AND NOT JOINED THE CATHOLIC
CHURCH.
>> A LOT OF PEOPLE STAYED IN
ENGLAND ON BOTH SIDES.
>> THESE PEOPLE I THINK WERE
SMARTER.
THEY GOT OUT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
SO ONLY IN AMERICA.
>> ONLY IN AMERICA, AND BRIEFLY
THEY WERE IN PARAGUAY FOR A
WHILE, BUT I BELIEVE THEY MAY
HAVE EVEN THOUGHT TO BE AMISH.
THEY MAY BE OLD ORDER
MENNONITES, WHICH ARE SIMILAR IN
DRESS AND HABITS AND THEY'RE
CHRISTIAN, BUT THERE'S ONE PLACE
IN ELMER, CANADA, WHICH IS NEAR
TORONTO, AND THEY ARE SURVIVING
AND LIVING THE WAY THAT THEY DO
IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> SO HOW MANY?
>> 220,000 IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> WOW.
THAT'S -- IT'S SIZABLE NOW THAT
I THINK OF IT AND YOU THINK
ABOUT HOW MANY CATHOLICS OR
LUTHERANS OR EPISCOPALIANS THERE
ARE, IT'S DWARFED.
WHAT IS THE AMISH VIEW OF
EDUCATION?
>> AT A POINT, THEY WILL INSIST
THAT THEY HAVE THEIR OWN
EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.
THEY DO NOT WANT TO GO BEYOND
THE EIGHTH GRADE, BECAUSE THEY
BELIEVE THAT THE LEARNING THAT
THEY HAVE IN THOSE SCHOOLS UP
THROUGH THE EIGHTH GRADE IS
ENOUGH FOR THEM WITH THE STYLE
OF LIVING THAT THEY HAVE.
SO A YOUNG BOY IS GOING TO DWELL
ON THE MATHEMATICS TO MAKE SURE
THAT WHEN HE GETS OUT, HE'S
GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF
THE CREW THAT'S GOING TO BUILD
THE BARNS AND THE REPAIR WORK
AND SO FORTH.
AND THE GIRLS ARE GOING TO BE
SURE TO DO THE READING AND SO
THEY MAKE SURE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO
READ RECIPES, I THINK.
SO THAT'S THE BASIS OF THEIR
EDUCATION.
THEN, WHEN THE SUPREME COURT
HEARD THE CASE ABOUT THIS, THEY
DECIDED TOO, THAT THE STYLE OF
LIVING THAT THE AMISH LIVE, THAT
THE EIGHTH GRADE GRADUATION AT
THE END OF EIGHTH GRADE IS
SUFFICIENT.
>> THE BOOK IS "THE AMISH IN
WISCONSIN" AND I UNDERSTAND IT'S
ALMOST SOLD OUT, BUT YOU CAN
STILL FIND COPIES OF T. IT'S A
FASCINATING BOOK AND I WILL DO
IT BECAUSE YOU ASKED ME TO, THIS
IS BOOK THAT'S CALLED THE AMISH,
WHICH IS A SUBJECT YOU LOVE AND
I'M TOLD THAT IS ALSO A VERY
GOOD BOOK.
GOSH, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
THIS IS FASCINATING.
I REALLY ENJOYED MEETING YOU AND
TALKING TO YOU ABOUT A GREAT
TOPIC.
THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
I HOPE YOU CAN JOIN US NEXT TIME
AS WE CONTINUE TO REMEMBER.