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We'll begin today with a conversation between Richard Kurin, the Under
Secretary for History, Art, and Culture at the Smithsonian Institution and Joseph Henry,
the first Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution
who's with us today. We're very fortunate to have him. He comes courtesy of the artistry
of Dwane Starlin. Please welcome them. [Applause]
RICHARD KURIN: Thank you, thank you Ray, thank you Tim. It's great to be here
this morning, and great to welcome you all to the Smithsonian National Museum of American
Indian. I'm about to bring onto stage Joseph Henry. For those of you who don't know Joseph
Henry, he was the first Secretary of the Smithsonian, born in 1797 in upstate New York. He wanted
to be an actor at one time, but was really self-taught. Then he wanted to become an engineer.
He did experiments in electromagnetism. He actually helped develop the electromagnetic
relays that lead to Morse successfully developing the telegraph.
Harry went on to become a professor at Princeton. He was instrumental in his studies of weather,
meteorology, really beginning the system of weather buddies (although it wasn't called
that then). His work lead to the development of the weather maps, and eventually the National
Weather Service. He was very important in the study
of sun spots. He did a lot of work on the study of acoustics. He encouraged a guy named
Alexander Graham Bell to do experiments that led to the telephone. Henry was really regarded
as the foremost scientist of the 19th Century. He ended up being Abraham Lincoln's science
advisor during the Civil war. He was one of the founding members of the National Academy
of Sciences and later its President. He was President of the Washington Philosophical
Society. He was President of the Association for the Advancement
of Science. Henry was really a major figure. Presiding over the Smithsonian from its beginning
to his death in 1878 really gave character and shape to the Smithsonian Institution.
He was at the crossroads of many developments of intellectual and scientific thought in
19th Century America. Let us welcome the first Secretary of the Smithsonian,
Joseph Henry. [Applause]
JOSEPH HENRY: Well. MR. KURIN: A big welcome to you,
Secretary Henry. Thank you for joining us today.
MR. HENRY: Well, thank you very much Dr. Kurin. It was a very complimentary introduction.
I appreciate that a great deal. I also enjoyed Mr. Suarez's remarks. Some very interesting
points came to be. MR. KURIN: Well, today I want to ask you about
some of those questions. You were the key interpreter of James Smithson's
will. James Smithson who bequested his fortune to the United States for an institution for
the increase and diffusion of knowledge. Smithson really left no instructions directly on what
the subject matter would be, particularly with regard to questions of human culture,
of race, of things like that. So why did you think, or did you think it appropriate for
the Smithsonian to get into the study and the understanding of issues of history, ethnology,
race, and so on? MR. HENRY: Well, first of all, Mr. Smithson,
as everyone should be aware, had never visited the United States. Merely, as you said, left
the bulk of his estate with one reservation. He had a nephew that had to pass away first
without any prodigy. MR. KURIN: Unfortunate he did, huh?
MR. HENRY: The United States absolutely. But, that simple phrase gave me,
and has given many people a great deal of concern. What does it mean to increase and
diffuse knowledge? That was one of my first tasks when I accepted the office in 1846,
was the sit down what I refer to as a programme de organization, organization program, setting
forth what I felt was important. My statement was that we should stimulate all
branches of knowledge, regardless of how miniscule they may be, we should not really have any
difference to one thing over the other. Everything should be part of the study
that we go along with. One never knows when this knowledge will come to fruition and will
become, shall we say, useful to everyone else. MR. KURIN: Well, in those early days, you
did specify the idea of the importance of studying the history of American Indians.
You really did sponsor and encourage a lot of early work.
Can you tell us about the work that the Smithsonian did with regard to the native or indigenous
people of North America, as you phrased it? MR. HENRY: The American Indian had and has
a remarkable culture. As you indicated it was a consideration of the Smithsonian from
early on, as early as 1951. We were encouraging studies of the American Indian. One of our
concerns was that the American Indian, as far as the population and as well as the culture
was literally dying out. We felt an urge and a
necessity to study this culture, to study the people before it was too late, before
they no longer were able to be consulted. How many times have we thought about ancestors
or about individuals from the past? What was it like? Why didn't I ask them the questions
at the time that they were live, whereas you have to go out and do so afterwards. I've
always said that the highest enjoyment of out safe demand
in this life is the discovery of new truths. This is what we're looking toward and when
we're looking toward at the time. As I said, again, quite early on, our first annual report
(which was part of my program) was to every year publish information that showed the results
of our studies. Our very first report was entitled "Ancient Monuments
of the Mississippi Valley." It was about the mounds left by the American Indian cultures
at the time. We were quite interested in it. We
also did a great deal to make America aware of the image thorough actual portraits. We
commissioned individuals such as Charles Bird King and John Mix Stanley and George Catlin
to record not just the physical appearance of the American Indian, but their lifestyle.
MR. KURIN: You sent folks around the country to collect ceramics,
artifacts, and relics, as you call them. You had some of those people like Dahl [phonetic],
Rahul [phonetic], and Kennicott, collecting stuff.
MR. HENRY: Yes, we had a lot of those young naturalists. In fact, we housed them at the
Smithsonian Institution. We permitted them to live with us when they were "in town"
here at the capital city. That enabled them to work on their collections. Collecting is
done in many parts. There is the physical act of actually gathering, but then
you bring your harvest back and then you have to classify it, categorize it, and so forth.
Yes, we did encourage people. I remember the young Mr. Kennicott, who unfortunately passed
away in Alaska I believe, but he was with us for many years. He was part of what we
call the Megatherium Society. MR. KURIN: You sponsored research,
early anthropologists like Lewis Henry Morgan. MR. HENRY: Correct.
MR. KURIN: What was the goal of those kind of studies? I mean, were you looking at the
origins of languages, the origins of American Indians? I mean, what was the goal of this
research program? MR. HENRY: All of it was actually
apparent. Language was considered to be quite important, the linguistic basis for it. I
encouraged several individuals if they could create some sort of a dictionary or a chart
of the commonality of the spoken word of the
American Indian in order for us to really understand what was going forth. Of course,
all through that time we became well aware of the evolutionary considerations. Even before
Mr. Darwin, we were concerning ourselves with how they evolved, as you indicated, from where
they originated and what they did once they were here.
MR. KURIN: Well, tell me, because in those early years before Darwin (and I know we're
talking in 1878 at the end of your career) obviously the issue of race was heavy on the
minds of Americans. Thinking about the origins of different people than Americans and Europeans
and others were coming into contact with. So
what was your thinking? What was the thinking of American scientists at the time that you're
Secretary of the Smithsonian? How do we place? How do we classify? How do we think of
people? What were you wrestling with, and what were the people around? You had Louie
Agassiz on your regents at one point. MR. HENRY: Right, he was on the Board of Regents.
Of course, he was an advocate of pluralism. The big debate, even before Mr. Darwin was
monogenesis versus polygenesis. Mr. Agassiz, as you indicated, was of the
thought that there was more than one race, and there was more than one origin. So it
was not just the Adam and Eve, which was of biblical consideration prior to Mr. Darwin,
which is actually in some ways expanded upon. It was just a different interpretation of
who Adam and Eve were. Mr. Agassiz was very much of the opinion that there were
distinct races, and that they had no connection one with the other.
MR. KURIN: So there were separate races of creation, so Africans were different people.
People in the orient, Chinese and so on, Asians, were a
different race of people. Anglo-Saxons were a different race of people.
MR. HENRY: That was his opinion, and the opinion of several individuals along the way. Even
when broached with the subject of commonality, the same use of a tool such as a hammer or
an axe, was considered to be just a coincidence. One race arrived at the use
of this instrument at a similar time, but there was no connection.
MR. KURIN: How did Darwin change that? MR. HENRY: Well, obviously, Mr. Darwin's statement
was evolution of the species. So it was just not mankind. It was all of God's
creatures, all of the creatures on earth. He followed it from the one cell up to the
very sophisticated, very complicated human being that we have at this time.
MR. KURIN: So Morgan and others taking that influence from, I think, Darwin and Spencer
as well, developed a scheme of the classification and development of culture.
MR. HENRY: Yes. Again, to enlarge upon the use of the term evolution. Not only was there
an evolution of the species, but there was a social evolution within civilizations.
There was a general feeling that there was a three-step characterization of civilization.
There was savagery, barbarism, and then finally civilization as it was. That's how the races
sometimes came into conflict, and that's one of the things going back to talking about
the American Indian, was happening to the American Indian. They were being
confronted with the Anglo-Saxon race, which was more civilized. As a consequence, civilization
was winning. MR. KURIN: Obviously one of the
trying periods of thinking about this notion of different people in the United States came
to the fore with the Civil War. You were sitting really in the hot seat with regard to that,
in terms of thinking about issues of conflict in the U.S., of African Americans, slavery,
abolition, and so on. Can you tell me about how issues of thinking about
race become implicated with your tenure at the Smithsonian?
MR. HENRY: First of all, I continue to be amazed at the use of the term "Civil War."
We did not call it the Civil War during that particular time. It was a very dark time.
I frequently referred to it as a fratricidal war, brother against brother, race against
race. As a consequence, it was a difficult time. I was
very close to the President. He had appointed me, I think you indicated in your introduction,
as one of his science advisors. I consulted with him on weaponry, the use of
the hot-air balloon, and communication in general, particularly the telegraph, which
I was fortunate enough in days earlier to do some of the background investigation for.
The Smithsonian Institution did not take sides during this war. We flew neither the Union
nor the Confederate flag at the Institution during the entire conflict along
the way. We opened our doors to all of the inhabitants of the globe regardless of where
they came from. There were so many indications or barriers along the way. You've heard of
the Dred Scott case. The presiding judge and the majority opinion was written by Roger
Taney, who was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court as well as the Chancellor
of the Smithsonian. That case held that a freed black person was not freed if they happened
to be pursued by someone who wanted to arrest them and return them to slavery, they
could do so. So these were the incidents that were going through at that time. In addition,
as I said, the dark times financially, an uncertainty. We had no idea what was going
to happen. The southern states withdrew their support, including of the Smithsonian. We'd
invested in state bonds of such states as Virginia and Georgia,
and they defaulted on them. As a consequence, we were unable to meet some of our financial
obligations. I remember writing my brother-in-law, Mr. Alexander, stating that if things were
not resolved quickly I would be forced to either charge admission to the Smithsonian
or perhaps dismiss some of our employees and go with contract labor
in order to make up the shortfall. Very dark times, and again, I was of mixed emotions
because the President of the Confederacy was Jefferson Davis who was a
Board of Regent when he was Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce.
MR. KURIN: And in support of your research program.
MR. HENRY: He was a very close supporter of our research program, correct.
MR. KURIN: So what did you think of African Americans at this time of, as you
say, fratricidal war? How did you think of the issue of a race and the construction?
Were you for abolition? What did you think would happen?
MR. HENRY: I believed, at the time, that the *** would perish similar to what was going
to happen to the American Indian. I felt that, again,
in this evolutionary consideration, socially, that the Anglo-Saxon race was a more civilized
institution, and they were forcing themselves upon the *** population. Unless and until
that race could built itself up to equality, they would be submitted to the sublimation
that we're talking about. MR. KURIN: You and Lincoln worked on a scheme
didn't you? MR. HENRY: Exactly. It was called relocation.
One of the places that we thought would be best suited for that would be the country
of Columbia in South America. They had a rather ample
supply of coal. It was hoped that, I believe a term that's used was that the *** could
be re-patronized to Columbia and actually start the mining of this coal. This would
give them the financial basis to become a higher civilization. However, I had to reject
that plan, and made that recommendation to President Lincoln, because the coal was not
of such nature or composition that it would be adequate to be exported.
MR. KURIN: Then people would basically go back to Africa, to Liberia?
MR. HENRY: That was then the subsequent statement, was to send the freed slaves back to Africa
where they would assimilate themselves into that population.
MR. KURIN: I want to ask you about a series in 1861 and through the spring of 1862, or
for the winter as well, early months of 1862, the Washington Lecture
Association came to you. Basically this was a group of abolitionists who wanted to use
the Smithsonian auditorium which sat 2,000 people. You had designed it as sonically and
acoustically wonderfully. This was the best auditorium in Washington. They wanted to hold
a series of abolitionist lectures during that time. They
wanted to force the President, Abraham Lincoln to agree to emancipation. How did you feel
about that episode? MR. HENRY: Well, Dr. Kurin, there's a great
deal of difference of what should be done and what is done along the way. I think the
primary difficulty was politics. I have never desired to be involved in politics. In fact,
that has been an area that I have stayed away from. I've lived so long in Washington that
I am not in favor and do not hold in high regard partisan politics. I have always
tried to lift the Smithsonian Institution above that. I feel that we must be isolated
or insulated against the political process along the way in order to be a fair and objective
institution. When these lectures became obviously very political - - . I encouraged them to,
first of all, announce, which they did at their actual lectures that
this was not being endorsed by the Smithsonian Institution.
MR. KURIN: This was Horace Greely and Ralph Waldo Emerson. Really important
abolitionists of the period who had - - the President who actually attended and sat on
stage. In April 1862 they announced that he last speaker of the series, the culminating
speaker of the series would be Frederick Douglas, the great orator. You said, "I will not allow
a black man to speak in the rooms of the Smithsonian." Why was that?
MR. HENRY: Isn't it interesting how something is taken partially out of context and sounds
like such a vicious statement? My position was that Mr. Douglas' speech would be definitely
very political, and as a consequence taking sides during this fratricidal war that we
were discussing. As a consequence, I felt it would be in cindering. There is some irony
there that I'm sure you're aware of, because speaking of in cinerary, less than three years
later, that auditorium was demolished by a tremendous fire in January of 1865.
MR. KURIN: It strikes me as ironic in some ways, maybe even paradoxical, because your
longest serving, probably most loyal employee at the Smithsonian at the time was a fellow
named Solomon Brown. You'd worked with Solomon Brown before the Smithsonian when you were
laying telegraph wire between Baltimore and Washington.
Solomon Brown, a distinguished African American who did so much for the Smithsonian. He went
on to serve the Institution for 54 years. How do you separate out your attitude toward,
as you call it, the "*** race" from your relationship with one of your closest, most
loyal employees who worked with you every day, who did speak in
the rooms of the Smithsonian? MR. HENRY: I think it's actually an extension
of what I've just said. Here was a gentleman that had risen above
and was actually becoming civilized. Via that particular approach was showing himself to
be equal along the way. I had never said that I was against the *** race.
MR. KURIN: After the Civil War, the notion of the National Museum picked up quite a lot.
You even had attendants at the Smithsonian Castle during
the Civil War, with all sorts of people coming in to see the exhibitions. What did you think
about the whole notion of museums? Do you think the Smithsonian should be called a museum?
MR. HENRY: I felt there was nothing wrong to view, or have on view items or collections.
But, I felt that one of the biggest problems was whether you were
presenting something merely for curiosity as opposed to legitimate study along the way.
There was the question of money, the question of cost. As you are well aware, the
original bequest by James Smithson was partially consumed almost 50%, almost have of that bequest
went to the building of the Smithsonian Institution itself. A 12th Century building in the 19th
Century, and possibly not the finest use it could be along the way. Also, there had been
a long history of, as I read recently, a dreary train of museums
that has preceded this particular display. Let's see, there was the Institution of United
States Military Philosophical Society. There was the Columbia Society. There was the Metropolitan
Society. There was the National Institute, which was formed by Mr. Poinseg [phonetic]
in anticipation of receiving the monies from Mr. Smithson. Again,
the problem was one can collect, but there is also the expense and the time consumption
of maintaining this collection in a valid presentation.
MR. KURIN: Your Assistant Secretary, Mr. Baird, of course, he kind of liked museums. After
that fire you spoke of in 1865, you gave him permission to use the upper floors of the
castle as a museum. MR. HENRY: I did.
MR. KURIN: Thus getting rid of the lecture hall and a prospect of future
political controversy, I might add. In '76 we had the centennial exhibit of the United
States in Philadelphia. You were very much involved, and the Smithsonian was very much
involved in putting that together with the government of the United States, a display
of accomplishments. I recall that Baird came up with the idea of not only displaying the
American Indian artifacts that had been collected by
the Smithsonian during your tenure, but also wanted living American Indians in Philadelphia
at the 1876 exhibition. What happened with that?
MR. HENRY: Well, ironically I was not opposed to that particular approach. The stumbling
block was the United States congress. They would not make available the necessary funds
to actually bring such an abidance [phonetic] to the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia.
So, as a consequence we were unable to carry through on that. I
bear no responsibility for the failure of that particular mission. Actually, inadvertently,
I began the now custom of more museums or other museums in more buildings because all
of the items that we had on display in Philadelphia we had to do something with. So it became
necessary to build what I preceded in death, but the arts and industry building.
MR. KURIN: I know with Baird, with the proposal to congress for the participation of living
American Indians, the idea was to have American Indians
that spoke English, that were cleaned up, and that would come with even dogs or ponies.
Was that to show American Indians as civilized? When congress refused to fund that, Mr. Baird
then sent mannequins to be Indians. MR. HENRY: Exactly.
[Laughter] MR. HENRY: I cannot really address it any
further than just say that's exactly what happened. There was an effort to placate the
United States congress. Obviously they would not be representing the American Indian in
their true fashion, but even that refreshed position was not deemed adequate.
MR. KURIN: As a result, as you note of the 1876 exhibition, all those artifacts
from Philadelphia came in, I don't know, four dozen train loads back to Washington to a
new building that you had gotten started on, the
National Museum building that people were later to call the Arts and Industries building.
There was a scheme or the plan for how to exhibit and display everything the Smithsonian
had in that one museum, including human beings. Any thoughts on the rationale of that? Did
you think it was necessary to separate out American Indians in a particular
museum, or African Americans, or Asians? You had everything in that one building. What
was the logic for that? Was there logic? MR. HENRY: I certainly hope so. I feel that
there was some logic to it, but again, the different races was not a consideration, as
I stated early, that we were trying to stimulate all branches of science,
all branches of knowledge. The best way to do that would be by the categorical considerations.
There were some new types of science coming in that I'm sure you're quite aware
of. Anthropology was on its forefront at that particular time. It did not exist, and I've
read your biography that this is apparently somewhat of an important part of your life,
on that. [Laughter]
MR. KURIN: Yes, it is. In that plan for the Arts and Industries building, I note that
the center section, given that the whole thing was a square, was American
history, and that was somewhat separated from Native American life and life in the other
parts of the world. Were American Indians, African Americans, and others being inadvertently
cut off from the story of American history? Were they part of nature or previous time?
MR. HENRY: Again, the Anglo-Saxon race was the predominate race at the time. There was
no suggestion that we were eliminating anything else. It was just a matter of what was
happening. I believe that actually that's continued on through the years. After the
Arts and Industry building, what was the next building that was built, sir?
MR. KURIN: Well the National Museum across the way.
MR. HENRY: Yes, so I see nothing that would be different in that consideration. The one
thing that I would like to caution, and I feel like possibly
we're coming to a close here, is to rush into construction of many different institutions.
I think one of the terms is brick and mortar? If you have more brick and mortar buildings,
because as always happens there frequently is a new concept right around the corner that
may be better. Someone has advised me that certain experiments that I did in the 19th
Century, electromagnetism, have possibly begot something called "the web"?
[Laughter] MR. HENRY: I understand that the web, in many
ways, is yet another building. It has the need for all of the supervision and expenses
that would go along with a physical building such as this, employees and so on.
MR. KURIN: Well, I think you'd enjoy it. As someone who developed the telegraph, I think
you'd really enjoy the web and the blackberry devices today.
[Laughter] MR. KURIN: Professor Henry, thank you very
much for a very engaging conversation. We appreciate you coming here from across the
century. Thank you very much. MR. HENRY: Thank you. I really want to say
that I would like to have you all realize that the Smithsonian is not for
just a day. We have designed it to endure for as long as our government shall exist.
MR. KURIN: Thank you. MR. HENRY: Thank you Dr. Kurin.
MR. KURIN: Thank you. [Applause]