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Alison Fryer: In the book, you give us a lot of information, but I want to know how much
didn't make it into the book? What was left on the cutting room floor so to speak?
Gabrielle Hamilton: Yeah. I think... The way I understood my sort of invitation to this
party if that's what you want to call it, like the way I get asked to write a book is
because I'm a chef, and I work in the restaurant industry, and for whatever reasons, that's
very popular right now, which I can't explain, and it's weird to me. But, I'm very grateful
to be in the right place at the right time, but when I had to write the book, I understood
that it could only be about my life and the people and places in so much as they pertain
to food. So, I had to jettison everything that didn't have a very strong food...
AF: Food connotation.
GH: Context, exactly. And that's also how I kind of sneak in to the party, like I'm
invited through food, but I'm not gonna stay in that... I'm gonna sneak in as much human
condition as I can...
AF: [chuckle] And there's a lot.
GH: Bring whatever writing skill set I have to the party as much as I possibly can. I
didn't want to just stay in the...
AF: So, were you asked...
GH: What I consider the food writing ghetto. That's...
AF: Were you asked to write a memoir or were you asked to write a cookbook like along the
ways. I mean, what prompted the memoir first?
GH: I think. No, I was just asked to write a book or I had been asked many times to write
a book, and I didn't quite understand that. It was a little too early. Prune had just
opened, I guess, and people were starting, "Oh, you should do a book. You should do a
book." And I felt actually very offended by that 'cause I revere books, and I thought
they were precious, not precious, but special, and only real people, real writers could write
books, and I've since learned...
[laughter]
GH: You don't even have to write your own book anymore.
[laughter]
GH: And everyone could have a book.
AF: Yeah, ghost writing's a whole other thing, right?
GH: It is. It's been so devalued. Actually, the lowering of the bar helped me a lot. I
was like "Oh, well. I can do that too then!" So, I felt...
AF: Do you feel the bar's been lowered on food writing?
GH: I do. Of course. Is that all right to say?
AF: Yes.
GH: You see it. I walked through a bookstore. I was like, "Oh my God! There are so many
books!" Now everyone can write a book.
AF: Apparently.
GH: So, it helped me relax my anxiety about what kind of skill set you had to have to
do it. I'm not saying I didn't work very hard, and I gave it every freaking molecule I own
to put into the book, but I just thought, "I just have to do good enough or I have to
do my best. I'm not possibly gonna be as good as the literature that I read."
AF: Right. Do you... Would you... Do you follow any blogs? There's so much food blogging out
there, and so much of it is so bad. And seriously, come on. Let's call a spade a spade here.
Some of those... They should just keep diaries and not let everybody share it with everybody!
Sorry, I had to get that off my chest too.
[laughter]
GH: Do you sell books by any chance?
AF: We do sell books, yeah. I know. But, we don't sell blogs.
GH: You're not bitter, are you?
AF: [laughter] Yeah, okay, let's back on track here.
[laughter]
GH: I don't follow blogging. I don't. It's... You know what I will tell you for sure? I
have never once read a single blog, and even of the most august publications that have
an online presence that doesn't contain spelling, syntactical, and factual errors. Every single
time.
[applause]
GH: It's unbelievable. The lack of editing.
AF: Yeah. Yeah.
GH: I'm just a die hard print person until they make me go.
AF: Yay!
GH: And even then...
AF: Back to the book for a little minute. You were talking about, in the book, all about
the great parties and how your dad staged them, and your mother's cooking, all those
sort of stuff. When was it that you realized those were actually really special moments
and a very unconventional childhood? Like, when did it dawn on you? 'Cause you were just
living the moment. You probably thought that was pretty normal or not or how did it dawn
on you that, that was special?
GH: No, I think that our uniqueness was actually hammered home to us by our mother all the
time in a kind of *** way. So, I think I was very aware from the first time you try
to bring a friend home from school, and they see that your house has pigeons roosting in
the walls, and nobody seems to mind... Or that the light switches don't have any dimmer
buttons on them, so you're sort of wiring things together to make the lights go on.
The foods that we ate, even our lunch boxes were, for us felt freakish. But, we understood
that we were freakish and different in a kind of superior way.
[laughter]
GH: That's what our mom would have had us know. But, I think those memories are because
the family kind of imploded and dissolved so early in my life... I mean, I'm watching
my son now, and he's... You don't have much time of conscious... Like you sort of come
to when you're about five. You kind of figure out what's going on in the world more or less.
So, I think that's the same for me. I must have sort of come to when I was five, and
then it all ended when I was about 11. So, the memories I have are vivid, and I've locked
onto them tenaciously. It's a little bit like if your house burns down, and you only have
five photographs like you study them very meticulously. So.
AF: And then once you... I loved the bit where you got the $100 People's Express ticket.
Actually how many... I flew People's Express.
GH: 99. $99.
AF: Yeah. 99.99, That was year's ago. I think it flew out of Buffalo. We used to trek down
there. But, that took you out of your comfort zone. That took you in a way to meet people
that you truly didn't... Had not expected and food in a different way meeting people.
So you can tell us about that. But can people do that today? Like, 'cause here we've got...
This probably is being taped as we speak. It'll be on YouTube by the time we walk out
of here. Can people leave their comfort zone like that anymore to challenge themselves
to, to get some ingenuity and creativity?
GH: I'm sure they can but maybe not in the same way. I'm wondering if that kind of travel
is even possible now that there's an ATM machine everywhere I guess and an Internet cafe wherever
you go. I'm sure you can. I don't know in what context you would find that. It may not
be backpacking around the world anymore. But really what those conditions are, are to sit
in your loneliness and isolation for as long as you have to and make do. Or to starve or
find yourself on a platform in the south of India and you need to be in Thailand in three
weeks 'cause your traveller's cheques get renewed there. Or whatever it is I'm saying.
So I don't know what the circumstances are in which one develops that kind of self-reliance.
But it may not be in the same way that I did it, but I'm sure...
AF: They can do it.
GH: Someone could do it.
AF: Yeah. That was a real seminal moment for you though, those travelling that you look
back on now?
GH: Completely...
AF: Completely, yeah.
GH: Pivotal, important, life-saving time. By the time I finished that and had to go
back and finish college, I was almost laughing all the way. I was like, "Oh, you think this
is hard to read this long book and write this long paper?"
AF: Let me tell you right?
GH: [chuckle] This is a piece of cake. [chuckle]
AF: You said, and I quote you, "I don't eat for entertainment and I don't eat to have
my mind blown". I read somewhere. I can't remember where, but you said it, trust me.
[laughter]
GH: Yeah.
AF: I was very conscious to make sure if I was gonna quote you that it was actually in
print. So in today's age of superstar chefs like Redzepi and Ferran AdriĆ and Grant Achatz
where a lot of that is mind-blowing entertainment, and they use local ingredients and they're
pushing the envelope. How would you describe your cooking and your food or your philosophy,
if you like, on cooking in the context of what is going on all around you know?
GH: It's very simple.
AF: They're just throwing those dandelions on the plate.
GH: I eat...
AF: Little tweezers.
GH: When I'm hungry.
AF: You eat when you're hungry.
GH: And I cook what I would like to eat.
[laughter]
AF: You are hungry?
GH: And I stop eating when I'm not hungry. [chuckle] And I don't cook things that don't
matter to me. It couldn't be simpler. I don't use food for... I've heard that phrase 'comfort
food' or 'guilty pleasure' or 'reward or punishment.' Whoa! I would never saddle all that crap on
the food. I'm just hungry and I have certain cravings and I like to eat what I'm craving
and then I like to move on. And the cooking at the restaurant is the same way. It's just
very straightforward and... I guess I didn't open a restaurant hoping that people would
pay attention to the chef or the kitchen. I wanted them to pay attention to each other
at the table and there would be what's required to make that conversation go more fluidly
like a little liquid, some wine and some good food that makes...
AF: Well in light of that...
GH: Human exchange a lot easier.
AF: The hospitality part. Right?
GH: Yeah.
AF: That a lot of people forget when in a restaurant. Two things then: How, in the idea,
well I know you don't like competitive cooking things. You won Iron Chef. I don't like...
I like the more instructional cooking shows on television. I like the more educational
and they can be entertaining but I don't like that whole reality stuff that's just me. And
I don't, I understand you don't like that either. But, you did go on Iron Chef.
GH: I know. It was...
AF: So how do you...
GH: It was such a whim. I was in the kitchen, in the prep kitchen when the call came in
and my kitchen is pretty much stocked with 23-year-olds like most kitchens. And I just
put the phone down on my shoulder and I was like, "You guys, Iron Chef, you know what
do you think?" And they were like, "Yeah go for it! Yeah!" I was like, "Okay, I'll do
it."
[laughter]
AF: Okay I feel better now. [laughter]
GH: So, I sort of took one for the team.
AF: You did it for them. [laughter]
GH: Yeah. They were so excited and then I don't like to do too many things that I fail
at so I was like, "Well if we're going, we're gonna win."
[laughter]
GH: I'm not gonna humiliate myself in front of 10 billion Americans.
[laughter]
AF: And so what brings you...
GH: So we took them down. I mean, whatever.
AF: Yeah you did.
[laughter]
AF: It has never been the same since. So how do you, 'cause that brings you a lot of attention
to Prune and to you.
GH: Yeah. We can tell every time that re-airs.
AF: Do you really? Is it like Spike?
GH: That and every time Tony Bourdain, I should just pay him. He did a 'No Reservations' episode
at the restaurant and we know every time it runs. It's incredible. The power of television
is incredible.
AF: Yeah. Scary. A little bit. So in that context then when you've seen a lot of your...
GH: Scary about it, if I can just say is what...
AF: Yes.
GH: If you don't wanna participate, how are you gonna put *** int the chairs in your
restaurant? Maybe not at 8 o'clock but at 5:30 and 10. And what I find maybe sad, I'm
not sure, but sometimes I'm watching the competition shows and I see people that I know, older
cooks who've been doing it a long time, what we call old stoves, and they are brilliant
cooks and I'm like, "Why are you rinsing your pasta in the dorm room shower stall? This
is so beneath you. Why are you doing this?" And then I understand why. It's because you've
got to fill your restaurant. So it can be a little weird.
AF: In Toronto here we've got, David Chang's coming, Daniel Boulud's coming, why is it
only still one Prune? Is that a conscious decision to not expand or just...
GH: I have some aversion to making money I don't understand.
[laughter]
GH: And that may change the more I look into private education for my children.
[laughter]
GH: Should I open Prune in Toronto?
AF: Yes. Let's open Prune in Toronto.
[laughter]
GH: Yeah.
AF: So just tell me you're not, you don't...
GH: I don't have a voracious consuming personality like that. I love my restaurant more than
anything. I feel kind of devoted to it, kind of like a long-term marriage. I think it's,
it's very fun to get married or to have children and then you have to be married and then you
have to raise the children, [laughter], and it's the same with the restaurant. It's fun
to open a restaurant or to try out your new concept and... But to really run one and keep
it relevant and fresh and alive and in good shape 25 years later that's a more compelling
ambition for me. And it's nonprofit, it's the stupidest thing.
AF: Nonprofit. [chuckle]
GH: Whatever. You wanna sell my cookbook?
AF: Yeah. I guess.
AF: We'll have you back here for a book signing and see what happens with that. So you live
a family life and like the kitchen family in your own, like somebody's personal family,
your own family, how do you balance that? I know you must get this task all the time
and it's hard. Anybody who runs a small business doesn't need to be a restaurant, it's hard
finding that balance.
GH: Yeah.
AF: Or like something usually gets sacrificed along the way.
GH: Oh. Well, I gave up sort of thinking about balance after I realized I was chasing it
for over two years. I kept hearing myself say this sentence over and over again, "Hey,
you know what, next week everything's gonna calm down, it's gonna be much better and we'll
do that thing." And I heard myself really literally say that over and over until I was
feeling insane and I thought, "Actually, nothing's gonna be different next week." So when I understood
that it was gonna be this chaotic and this unbalanced, I relaxed myself into that kind
of hot bath. [laughter] And you... I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do. I burst
into tears when I see that my kid lost his first tooth and I'm catering somebody's wedding
or, I'm like "***, I just missed my kid's tooth or... "
AF: Yeah.
GH: But on the other hand they're fine and I'm fine...
AF: Yeah.
GH: And we see each other plenty and...
AF: I think if you like what you do makes a huge difference to how they perceive it.
They're not resentful of the restaurant or your workplace, or maybe they are, no?
GH: That's interesting. Yeah, I think it would be harsh to say to my kid, I don't have to
go to work, I want to.
[laughter]
AF: Good point.
GH: I'm prioritizing my job over you honey.
[laughter]
GH: But I do love my job and I do feel that way.
[laughter]
GH: Sometimes it's like I can't wait to get out of the house and go back to work, but...
You suffer these pains all the time. You don't know what's being cooked at your restaurant
or you don't know what happened to your kid's tooth or...
AF: There's always something.
GH: Yeah.
AF: What do you look for when you hire your kitchen staff? What do you look for in them
when they, when you get pile, which you must get a ton of resumes?
GH: Mostly it's a kind of smell test to see if we can stand next to each other in the
same room for 18 hours. It's really a lot of time spent with someone and the skill set,
you either... Hopefully you have a basic skill set and we can give you the rest, but personality
matters a lot. And so on a trial, we look a lot at how much the person talked or how
little they talked. So a real yakker on the first day is sort of like, "Mmm, nooo.", "And
you know what I think about vinaigrette?" It's like, "I don't care what you think about
vinaigrette on your first day". Or conversely the person that's so scared and silent. It's
kind of like, "come one get in the game role." So some personality that we can live with
and a skill set hopefully.
AF: How often are you in the kitchen now? You're on this year-long it seems like book
tour that never ends for you and lots of...
GH: Yeah.
AF: Notoriety now, but how...
GH: It's my favourite joke. I often, I'm proudly saying, "I have graduated. I think I'm an
executive chef now." And every time I say that, they're like, "Can you work the egg
shift on Friday?"
[laughter]
GH: I'm like, "I almost made it out". But in fact I have not worked... Oh, that's not
true, I did a couple of weeks ago. But in general I don't really work the shift where
I'm hauling the mats out at two o'clock in the morning anymore. I cook a lot of events.
So, when we have private dinners or we have an event thing happening at the restaurant
I tend to do those and all the holidays and family meals and stuff like that. So...
AF: What do you think of the students coming out of culinary school. 'Cause you probably
get a lot of them coming to you as well? Do you think they're equipped? Or probably have
a good skill set, 'cause you didn't really... You were on the job, on the fly learning as
you went.
GH: Yeah. I think more or less, I don't think they should quite be equipped. The one thing
that you notice immediately is that they don't have restaurant experience. So, to cook on
a hot line quickly and in volume is very different than learning your, proportion for four in
your one-hour class where you...
AF: Right.
GH: Did fish cookery that day or what have you. So, they're just two different things.
But that if someone comes and they should be clean and have their hair pulled back and
their knives sharp and know how to stand in a kitchen. I think that's a good education
from a cooking school.
AF: Know how to stand in a kitchen?
GH: Yeah I met Wynton Marsalis once and he said you watch the kids just hold the instrument
and you can tell so much. And I think it's true. You can just see how someone approaches
heat even. If you see someone sort of keeping their groin very far away, kind of the way
enemies kiss each other or...
AF: A tough one.
GH: I'm often walking by sort of pushing people's pelvises towards them.
[laughter]
GH: [chuckle] Like you might as well get used to this now. [chuckle]
[laughter]
AF: Has your palette changed over the years? You find? Like has it, have you developed
things that intrigue you now that didn't before?
GH: Not that I'm aware of. Sorry.
AF: Nothing. Isn't... You're just... You just like all, everything.
GH: No. I mean only during pregnancy, you know.
AF: Oh well. That's a whole other story. I do notice the big scar. Like I just thought
about the heat thing. I forgot to ask you, do you have battle wounds that you're... Because
when we have them come to the store we give a student discount to culinary students and
when they come in if they forgotten their student card we say roll up your sleeves.
And... And honestly it's like little nicks and they... Oh and then they start telling,
"Oh yeah and then I did this with that one." And then they go down memory lane. It's like...
So do you ?
GH: My favourite story of all time was pulling hot sheet pans out of a convection oven and
losing one sort of but couldn't lose the products. And I stopped it with my neck, I was like
"Oh." And now that I'm a better cook...
[laughter]
GH: I find that I can work an entire shift without getting burnt.
[laughter]