Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
Yeah, so--A very common question for learning any language, even something that's relatively
simple for native English speakers, like French or Spanish--you're starting out. You're overwhelmed
by the size of the task. You're just beginning. Maybe you've got a couple of books, but it
just seems just a huge task ahead and progress is difficult to quantify; difficult to feel
a sense of progress... I know that learning something, like Chinese, it's likely that
people are gonna find a very similar emotion coming up. So, what would you say to someone
who is starting out with Chinese and but just feels that it's a huge task and they're feeling
a little bit overwhelmed?
Sure. I think part of it is a question of psychology. And I think part of it's just
a practical question of how you're studying. So, on the psychology side of things, it's
really important that you focus--you hyper-focus down, you ratchet-down to just a few things
at a time. Now, whether that's three Chinese characters or maybe it's one verb, you know,
or one idiom, or one phrase--and you focus all your energy on just that one thing at
a time. Ignore everything else. This actually was really well codified--it was a Will Smith
quote. He was in an interview with Charlie Rose--
He's got some great quotes, Will Smith.
GREAT quotes. And he was recounting the story from his childhood when his dad told him and
his brother, one day, "okay, I need you guys. You need to build a brick wall. Right here.
An entire brick wall." And, you know, they were like, "Oh my! Dad, that's going to take
forever!" It's too big of a task. And, he's like, "just do it. Pick up one brick and you
lay that brick as perfectly as you can. And all you think about is that one brick. That's
it. Lay that brick perfectly. And then you pick up another. And you lay that brick. That's
all you see is that one brick. And, you lay that as perfectly as you can."
So, apply--
And, before you know it--yep, sorry.
Apply that metaphor to language, to learning Chinese, then.
Yeah, so with Chinese characters Another perfect example. That's one of the most, I think,
most intimidating elements of the language, as we've discussed to a lot of new learners--or
even old hats. Don't think, "oh, I have to learn three-thousand Chinese characters. It's
gonna take a lifetime." No. Right now, I need learn this one. That's it. This character.
And focus on learning it properly.
Yeah. Just nail it. I think part of that even is, in the early days, when you were really
motivated, you're probably going to bite off a bit much. You're gonna think, "Oh, I'm gonna
learn fifty Chinese characters a day." Yeah, good luck with that. Pretty soon, you're going
to be forgetting a lot more than you remember. But if you pick, let's say, ten or twenty--depending
on how you go about it. Even five. Or, even one.
Well, yeah, that's what it takes to make it happen. Then, one is a great start.
Ratchet it down. Ratchet it down to one. And then that dovetails into the other component,
which is the practical nuts-and-bits part of actually how you learn each day. And how
you measure your learning. If you do ratchet it down to one character, and you count, "okay,
I learned five characters," that's a number. That's Peter Drucker's "what's measured gets
managed." That's it. You know exactly how much you did. Whereas if you're just kind
of throwing all the stuff at you all the time, it's really hard to really measure your progress
or gauge what you've done.
Okay. So, taking on--carrying on this "overwhelm" thing for a minute. If we're--let's think
about speaking 'cuz that's what people want to do, above all, is to be able to speak.
I remember feeling this quite recently with Cantonese where I'd be talking to someone,
and there's so much I don't know and so much I can't say. Well, what's the next step and
how do you move forward from that point?
I think part of it is not being quite so *** oneself and realize you already know quite
a bit. And you've come a certain gap. You've come a certain distance. I mean, you do know
the word for "XYZ" already. And, remind yourself, "this morning, I didn't know the word for
this. Now, I do." Celebrate your small wins and don't be quite so *** oneself.
So, this is the psychology aspect.
Again. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to talk about without sounding wishy-washy and "woo-hoo,"
but I do think psychology is a big chunk of learning languages. Or learning anything for
that matter. It's how you frame it and how you think about it on a daily basis. But,
you still have to do the work. You can't think your way into acting a new way. You can act
your way into thinking a new way, right?
This is what. It's really interesting that thing about not being too *** yourself
because there's always more to focus on; there's always more to learn, isn't there?
Always.
Celebrating those small successes. And, even if it's just one word a day and realizing
that you've made that progress--I mean, you've got to take that just as much as the other.
Exactly. Another thing that is really effective both, I think, for long-term measurement of
progress and also for keeping yourself motivated and realizing that, "oh, I actually am getting
better," is recording yourself. Record yourself speaking, whether it's a Skype session you
do with a tutor, or an audio journal, or even just--it's not quite as powerful--but even
if you just want to read something out that you've written. It won't be as natural. It
won't be an assessment of your fluency, but it will be an assessment of your reading ability.
Yeah, an audio journal or a Skype session record yourself at least once a month. And
then when you are feeling bad, you know, halfway through the month, you can go back and you
can listen to the one from last month, or a couple months.
Ah, track your progress.
"Yeah, oh wow! Actually, I sounded like rubbish back then but I'm a lot better now" Yeah,
I used to not know how to pronounce all the "retroflexes". Now, I can. That's, I think,
a really powerful tool.
Yeah, because I've been recording some progress videos on my blog about my Cantonese journey.
And every month--I've tried to do it every month recording--and it's just me talking
a little about, as much, as best I can. And, it's a little bit of a chore to do it because
it's not the case that every month you get proportionally better, you know. It's up and
down.
Sure.
After six months, when I look back at the first one I did, I mean, it's just a world
apart.
Right.
And this psychology thing, I noticed this when I read your Master Japanese guide. And
then, similarly, in your Master Mandarin, which is the sequel, that so much of the book,
you dedicate to the psychology and the way of thinking about the approach and the language.
And, I think, when I was looking at that, I thought, "you're really on to something
here," because the reason that most people are going to give up is not because they haven't
managed to learn this particular grammar point. It's because there's something going on in
here. Or, in here.
Yah, in the long run, I think that the differentiator is how you think about the language, how you
think about your ability to learn the language. I think, like, with polyglots, for example.
Which, I don't consider myself one. I mean, I have been involved in some projects with
other polyglots but I only speak three languages at this point. So, that doesn't quite count.
But, if you look at a lot of the polyglots out there, I think what really makes the difference
for them is the confidence they have. It's the confidence they have, that no matter what
the language, they can learn it. They know that they can do it. And even though, it'll
be different challenges in each language group, especially, they know they can do it. They
have the confidence. And I think that makes the difference.
Okay, so just to summarize what we've just spoke about, the "overwhelm" thing, it's about
breaking it down into the small bits.
Small chunks.
Small, steady progress.
Yes.
And also looking back. Not just looking forward at what you haven't done yet, but looking
back over what you've achieved, and trying to celebrate that. And recognize what you've
done.
And, I want to add this one little thing, which is you do want to look at what you don't
know obviously, and I think that for, depending on your personality type, that, too, may motivate
you. A lot of people, they get frustrated, "Oh, didn't know what that word was in that
situation." And that frustration actually can also be a powerful motivator, depending
on your personality type.
Ok, so that frustration can either be either the thing that makes you give or the thing
that spurs you on to--
Yeah, it depends on whether you are a Type-A type, or you know. Or, you're another kind.
Yeah, I know which type I am, but let's not go there. So, listen let's move on to the
next point, which is another big question that comes up all the time If I want to learn
Chinese, do I need to go to China? What say you?
What say I? Well, I'm biased in that I did go to learn. I mean, most of my learning was
in Taiwan and I think there are a lot of obvious advantages to that. But, I think people already
know what those are, for the most part. Maybe we can circle back if it's not obvious, but...
Those being that you've got the opportunities to speak to people and you've got the input.
You've got the opportunity to see things and read things on a daily basis.
Twenty-four seven. But, there's two things I want to add to that. One is It's still not
a guarantee. You can very easily insulate yourself in a little ex-pat bubble and spend
most of every day hearing, speaking, reading and writing English, even though you're in
China or Taiwan. So, that's one drawback or potential drawback to that. Two--
Sorry to break in there, but in many ways, that's the default, isn't it?
Yeah.
Because I think most people that go and live in somewhere that's very different, like China,
are not automatically going to go out with lots of confidence and integrate into the
local society. They're going to be at home and they're going to find ex-pat friends and
all that stuff.
Sure. It's more comfortable.
So, it's not that just it's a risk. It's probably likely for most people.
That's a good point and I'm glad you said that 'coz that is the default, I think, for
the vast majority of people. And there's nothing wrong with having some foreign friends to,
you know,—'coz you're going to have frustration, you're gonna have culture shock, and you need
somebody to vent to and get stuff off your chest. But you really have to be careful not
to let that be the majority of your time. Or, five, ten, twenty years will go by and
you'll think, "Oh, I really don't speak Chinese." You know, there's a lot of people like that.
Especially, I think, especially, I think, even more so in Japan.
Japan is quite shocking, actually, seem to get by on hardly anything.
Yeah.
Their favorite brand of beer--
Right.
Their home station.
Yeah, or they get a Japanese significant other who speaks English and they do the heavy lifting
for them.
So, similar thing in China?
Definitely a similar situation. I think it's gonna be more so than Japan. But more of the
foreigners I met in China and Taiwan at least made an effort, it seemed. They still spent
most of their time in a foreigner bubble, but at least, I think, made a little bit more
effort. Anyway, back to the point is it's not a guarantee that you will learn because
you live in the country. And then, on the flip-side of that, it's not impossible to
learn a language in your home country. And I think that's a highly under-appreciated
advantage of all this new, cool technology we've got. I mean, right now, you and I are
speaking via Skype, halfway around the world to each other, and you very well could be
a Mandarin speaker. You know, right now, it's 924 in the morning here.
Wish I was. That would be great.
[Laughter] Wouldn't it? Yeah, so it's really just, I think, an excuse now, to say, "No,
I can't learn because I don't live in China, I don't live in Taiwan. I don't have enough
money to go abroad." I think that's an excuse; not a reality.
Okay.
And that's what, I'd say, about half of my site and my guide and everything I focus on
is providing specific recommendations of tools and resources that people can use. So, no
matter where you live, you can actually flood yourself everyday with listening input, reading
input, and then chances to both speak and write the language with native speakers.
Okay, so do you think that it's the case that every advantage or every benefit that you
can get from living in China, you can replicate where you are?
Not every one. I think you can get--you can make the best of wherever you live, I'll put
it that way.
But you can replicate it enough?
Enough that you can learn quite a bit. I still think it's obviously an advantage to go abroad.
And that's less for the linguistic advantages; that's more for the cultural advantages. I
mean, why are you learning the language in the first place. You know, what's the whole
point of it? It's probably to experience that culture, it's to communicate with its people,
it's to learn its history, to watch its movies, and, you know... And yes, there are chances
to do that anywhere in the world, probably, but I think the full benefit, and the full
richness of speaking a language I think is fully realized when you do go abroad.
Yeah, and I guess for most people, it's perfectly possible to take small--even if it's a short
vacation to the country. You don't have to go and live there. You can visit.
Yeah.
Which is perfectly fine.
I think it's, in a lot of ways, it's ideal, because I think when you live in a place for
a long time, as I lived in Taiwan, all said and done, I think four-and-a-half, almost
five years, you start to take a lot of it for granted, I think. Whereas if you're just
visiting specifically to enjoy it, I think you can get a lot more out of it in some ways.
Indeed. And, like I said, it's probably worth sort of breaking down the process, as well,
isn't it, because if you are at the beginning stages of learning a language, then--if you
were a complete beginner and living in China, most likely you're going to have to do an
awful lot of work and start speaking with natives on the ground a lot of time and it
might take you--easily take you a year or two or more before you can actually start,
you know, chatting to people casually. And that ground work that you have to do at the
beginning, I've found myself--I don't know what you think about it--but I think a lot
of that ground work, learning the initial vocabulary, getting used to the sound of the
language, is something that--in a way, you could argue is better done back home because
you don't have the stress of, "I wish I could talk to that guy on the street corner but
I just can't." By learning at home, you've got--it's stress-free. You can take your time.
Exactly. No, that's a very good point and I've come across that myself and a couple
others discover that same benefit. Yeah, that was my experience in Japanese, for example.
Granted, when I got to Japan, it was still broken Japanese, but I was fairly familiar
with it, you know, a lot of vocabulary and basic sounds and everything of the language.
So, I could hit the ground running. And I could get a lot more immediate benefit from
communicating, which then was this positive feedback loop that made me want to learn even
more and more and more. Whereas with Mandarin, I had a lot less to go on and yeah, it was
a lot more stressful. And a lot more frustrating...
So, did you have a period at the beginning of your time in China where you were kind
of holed-up, doing some intensive studying? How did you manage it?
No, I still had to eat, I had to take taxis, and get to work and all those things, so I
didn't really have a choice to use Mandarin on a daily basis. At least, I didn't give
myself the option.
Right.
But, I agree. Had I had the chance to really get familiar with the language before going
abroad, I think it would have been less stressful. But, the counterpoint to all that is that
stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can force you to learn a lot faster. So, I think
if speed is your primary goal, then even with zero ground work and zero understanding, it's
probably faster to go abroad from day one. Or, just jump in with two feet. A lot less
comfortable--
Yeah, in an ideal world, if you can choose your own--
Yeah. If you can, this is how I'm going to learn this language, but few of us have that
option, of course. We get thrown into various adventures.
So, I guess the point really is, just as we were speaking about before--there are certain
advantages and disadvantages to each particular context or method. But in no case is it an
excuse not to get started or not to start doing a lot of work.
Exactly. Yeah, and that's often I think what holds people back. We've already talked about
the myth of Chinese being "difficult". That holds people back. The myth of "I don't live
in Taiwan or China, so I can't learn." That's bogus. "I don't have enough money. I can't
take classes". Well, that's also bogus now. So many chances online to learn for free or,
at least, very cheaply.
And I guess a lot of those resources you cover in your various guides.
As many as I can. And I constantly update it, certain resources--the links get broken
or they take 'em down--so, I go through periodically and update it and add more in. And I should
mention anyone who does buy the guide gets free updates for life. So, any time a new
update is available, you can just go and get a download for free.
Yeah, 'cuz I think this is something--I haven't used the Internet a great deal. I didn't used
to use the internet a great deal for learning but part of the reason I didn't found it difficult
to find--you've got to filter through so much junk before you actually get to the right
thing.
Indeed.
So, having a resource, having it on a plate for you "Here are twenty different places
you can go for quality information." It's a real goldmine and that's why I really appreciate
it from your Master Japanese.
Yeah, and that's really what I think the real value is there. It's time. I mean, yes, you
could go and find all this stuff on your own. You certainly can. And, if you're a starving
student, for example, and you have time but no money, then, yeah, maybe it makes more
sense for you to do that.
If you're really good at organizing the Bookmarks bar on your web browser.
Yeah, exactly. But, if you're strapped for time, as most of us are, it makes more sense
to spend your time actually learning the language, not wasting all this time trying to find material
to learn the language.
So, listen I've got a question I wanna ask relating to going to China from Rick, and
he wants to know how different the Mandarin is in mainland China from Taiwanese Mandarin,
which is something I have heard--they are different, but I have no idea really. And
he goes on, "If I were to learn Mandarin in Taiwan, would I find it easy to converse in
the Mainland? The accents sound very different to me, almost like Cantonese and Mandarin."
Okay. Excellent question. To the first point, they are distinct. I mean, you can hear a
little bit of a difference. A lot of it depends on where in China and where in Taiwan you're
talking about. That's a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Outside of northern China,
a lot of places in China don't speak Mandarin very well. It's something that, in recent
years, they've started to learn it, but in my experience, I had no problem being understood
in, like, Shànghǎi (上海), for example. But as I travel south, down to like Xiàmén
(廈門・厦门), people had a lot different accent. I actually had a harder time understanding
people in southern China than I did in Taiwan a lot of times.
Is that because it gets closer to Cantonese?
Probably. That would make sense.
It's just such a huge country, isn't it?
Huge. And the word "Chinese" really is a bit of a misnomer. It's not one language--I wouldn't
even call them dialects. They are distinct languages that, for political reasons, have
been put under one umbrella term of "Chinese".
But, it's quite common. I've heard of a lot of people that go to Taiwan. It seems to be
more--this just might be a misunderstanding from my part--but it seems to be slightly
more Westernized or slightly more outward-looking part of China from all the other areas. So--
Culturally, yes. I think so. And that's changing in recent years. I think as China has started
to open up more, that it's changing. But culturally, yes, I think Taiwan is much more--we gotta
be careful about the words we use...
I think we've explained it perfectly well.
No, I think if you're a Westerner wanting to learn Mandarin, personally I think Taiwan
is a much more comfortable, enriching place to do it.
So, let's just go down on that a little bit in terms of the dialect. So, as Rick said,
if I were to learn Mandarin in Taiwan, would I find it easy to converse in the mainland?
Let's say if you went to Shanghai or Beijing or--
Well, that was my experience. I did most of my Mandarin learning in Taiwan. But, I did
a lot of business in Mainland China. So, I had no problem communicating. I mean, really,
the only challenge would probably be if you were going to Beijing. If you're going to
go to Beijing, because they have all those "Běijīng huà-er!" (北京話兒, "Beijing
dialect")—all that arr-arr stuff going on that they add a lot to the end of words. You
know, that's going to be very different. But again, that's going to be the case even if
you're studying in Shànghǎi or other parts of China. If you go to Beijing, you're still
going to have to learn that difference.
Can you say that again, that little bit?
"Běijīng huà-er!"
Nice.
Which is—that's "Běijīng huà-er", but they add an "r" sound on the end of a lot
of things.
Okay. I've heard some people talking with that accent.
It's very pirate-like. So, I don't think so. If you learn in Táiběi (台北, "Taipei").
I mentioned earlier--maybe I didn't get into it. So, in Taiwan, people in northern Taiwan,
where Táiběi is located, they speak "standard" Mandarin. And there's slight pronunciation
differences between there and mainland China, but they're very mild. As you go South, though,
more people are going to speak Taiwanese, which is actually a distinct language related
to the language of Fújiàn (福建) China, which is where most of the people emigrated
from to Taiwan. So, that is an issue to consider. If you are going to learn Mandarin, probably
it would make sense to do it in Táiběi or northern [Taiwan].
So, again, it's one of these things advantages, disadvantages, but no reason not to go, not
to do it.
Yeah, and I think the quality of life, I think, in Taiwan far outweighs any linguistic disadvantages.
Yeah, and this is a big deal, isn't it, 'coz if anyone is actually gonna go there to learn.
I mean, just as you can find different aspects of language learning difficult, you gotta
consider the place where you're living, as well. If you're living in a place where you're
miserable, the end effect is that you are going to give up learning the language. Yeah,
it's a really big consideration. Probably shouldn't keep going back to Japan, but Japan's
a prime example. Comparing people that live in Tokyo, Osaka, or one of the big cities
to someone that gets posted out in the countryside somewhere, which is what happened to you.
Yeah.
I mean, again disadvantages, advantages on both sides. It depends on what kind of person
you are. But they can have a massive effect on your language learning, depending on your
personality type.
No, I think--Yeah, if you get... Not that you usually get to choose, per se. There are
a lot of advantages to being in a rural area for language learning 'cuz that's all you've
got to do... If you can hack it.
Yeah, if you can hack it. If you can do it. It's not easy. There'll be definite trials
from a social point of view, but yah, form a purely linguistic perspective, I think definitely
it's an advantage.