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Not only did we get a mailbag crammed full of
questions about the age of the earth, our two lead
stories are also on that subject: Giving an age to
Grand Canyon, and Pat Robertson doesn't
understand the Biblical view of the age of the earth -
nor dinosaurs, which we expound upon in a new
rant! This is Genesis Week.
[gong, music]
And welcome to this episode of Genesis Week, the
weekly program of creationary commentary on
news, views and events pertaining to the origins
controversy, made possible by the supporters of
CORE Ottawa, Citizens for Origins Research and
Education, and now carried on the Christianima
network - christianima.com - Christian cinema at its
finest. Bringing you the best in pirate broadcasting,
we took over the old abandoned Camp Century,
where we continue to bring you the information the
anticreationists don't want you to see or hear, and
giving glory to our Creator while doing it. We
believe God gave you an intelligently designed brain
because He wants you to use it! Remember if you
get lost in cyberspace, you can just punch in
wazooloo.com or genesisweek.com and you can
find us, and also subscribe to our youtube channel to
get extras like CrEvo rants and full interviews with
our guests. I'm your host, Ian Juby.
Flowers and Farley published a paper in Science
magazine attempting to date Grand Canyon using
He4/He3 thermochronometry - and concluding that
Grand Canyon was cut some 70 million years ago.
This is in stark contrast to the current thinking of
those who embrace deep time, who would claim
Grand Canyon was carved maybe 5 or 6 million
years ago. Obviously, myself and many, many
others don't agree with any of those ages, because
we would attest that the evidence shows it's all quite
young and can only be adequately explained within
the context of a worldwide flood. In fact, Flowers
and Farley even acknowledge the problems of
interpreting Grand Canyon within deep time right in
the abstract of their paper:
Notice not just WHEN it was carved, by the WHY
and HOW remained unresolved. The reasons for
this are obvious, though you'll never hear about it by
just visiting Grand Canyon. If you go to the park,
you are told over and over again that the mighty
Colorado river carved this massive canyon. Okay,
first of all, the river aint that mighty - especially when
you compare the scale of the river to the canyon.
No, we would contend that rather than the river
causing the canyon, the canyon caused the river.
The Grand Canyon cuts through the Colorado uplift,
which is a giant dome uplift. Well, picture a dome.
The water can go AROUND the dome, but in this
case, the water went right THROUGH the dome.
The Colorado river would have to climb uphill some
3,000 feet in order to begin cutting the canyon!
Millions of years does not fix this little problem,
because millions of years does not change the laws
of gravity. However, within the context of a global
flood, the receding flood waters of the Noah's flood
were already above the mountains - so water will
cut whatever is in its road.
Notice what Flowers said about the history of
Grand Canyon:
Here at Genesis Week we hear it said allll the time
that "The majority of scientists believe evolution" - as
if that means it must be true. This is a logical falacy
called Argumentum ad populum, and there are
numerous problems with this thinking: For instance,
ask any scientist and he will tell you his conclusions
are TENTATIVE - they can be proven wrong at
any moment. The majority of scientists believe
evolution because they are told that the majority of
scientists believe evolution! The majority also
believes that Christopher Columbus sailed to the
new world to prove that the earth was round and
not flat, because everyone in his day believed the
earth was flat. This is a patently false statement -
everyone in Columbus's day knew the earth was a
sphere, and in fact this flat-earth myth was started
by two anti-theists who were trying to attribute this
ridiculous belief to Christians and Creationists in
order to make them look bad. This is a historical
point, and the majority believes it, but that does not
make it truth. So Flowers' comment is quite
appropriate for the subject at hand. If so many can
be so wrong about historical truths, many scientists
believing in deep time is utterly meaningless because
deep time is not testable, repeatable, or verifiable -
no one was there to record the events.
On that note, it's interesting that several researchers
are disagreeing with the conclusions of Flowers and
Farley - and presenting what appears to be good
reasons to doubt. David Coppedge once again gives
an excellent analysis of the whole "age wars" as he
calls it. David's whole point was that we obviously
can't trust the deep time continually handed to us.
Especially when they disagree with each other by so
much - the dates suggested range from 5 to 70
million years - different by a factor of 14! So how
do you know which age is right? Especially when
those same people would also claim that the
Redwall and Muav limestones in Grand Canyon
were laid down over millions of years - yet they are
interbedded - interfingered with each other! In
order to lay them down in interfingered layers, they
had to have been laid down at the same time, not
millions of years apart. The fire engine red Hermit
shale has cracks in it that have been filled in with the
prominent bright white coconino sandstone. The
sandstone was supposedly laid down millions of
years after the Hermit shale - wait a minute - in the
space of ONE year, you would fill those cracks in
the hermit shale with debris and other sediments -
instead, they are filled with pure coconino
sandstone, indicating the two layers were laid down,
geologically speaking, at the same time! You can
see these cracks for yourself as you hike down the
Bright Angel Trail. There's much more I could point
out, but we need to move along in this program;
suffice it to say, there is every reason to question the
claims of deep time put forward by those who
believe in an old earth, and every reason to believe it
was all laid down rapidly, in a world wide flood.
The 700 Club's Pat Robertson was answering a
question from a viewer named Michelle who was
concerned because her teenage boys were
questioning the Bible. As you all know, I am allll for
questioning the Bible. In fact, the Bible itself tells us
to "Test all things." What things? ALL Things! Well,
"All" would seem to include the Bible, would it not?
I'm not afraid of asking the tough questions -
including questions like "Is the Bible the word of
God?" What about the Koran - is it the inspired
word of God? What about the book of Mormon?
Anybody can claim to have a book given to them
by God - so how would you know if the book is, or
is not, from God unless you ask questions about it?
Unless you test it? Truth demands scrutiny while
error begs for tolerance. Unfortunately, Robertson
apparently did not think through the consequences
of his response, when he said:
"You go back in time, you've got radiocarbon dating, all
these things, and you have the carcasses of
dinosaurs frozen in time...They are out there. And so
there was a time when these giant raptors were on
the Earth and it was before the time of the Bible. So
don’t try to cover it up and make like everything
was 6,000 years, that’s not the Bible."
Well, actually, it IS there - where on earth do you
think Ussher got his number from? Numerous other
researchers have also come to similar conclusions -
here's Brock Lee's analysis. Their reasoning is
pretty simple: We have the genealogies from Christ
right through to Adam and Eve, who Jesus himself
said were created "In the beginning." Furthermore,
Mr. Robertson, apparently you are giving more
authority to people - namely scientists, than God and
His word! Further to that, you chose to give the
scientists more authority than Ussher! If you're give
people more authority than God, why reject
Ussher's research and embrace atheistic
scientists??? I'm bewildered by your comments!
Apparently Robertson never clued in to the fact that
he just put millions of dead dinosaurs before the
entrance of sin into the world: As we read in the
Bible, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into
the world, and death by sin;" So, Mr. Robertson -
was there death before Adam or not? Is the Bible
true or not? Jesus was supposed to bear the
consequences of our SINS, which is why he DIED
on the cross - it was the consequence of SIN. You
have just nullified the reason for Christ's death on the
Cross.
There are huge theological problems with what
Robertson said, which, while he shouldn't have
ventured into scientific matters he knows nothing
about, he certainly should have realized the
theological consequences of what he was saying!
Apparently Robertson is not aware of the testimony
of Charles Templeton - a friend and former
evangelist with Billy Graham. Templeton believed
what the evolutionists told him. Templeton did not
know the information I share with you on this
program. So while Templeton had the wrong
information, he did make a correct deduction: he
correctly concluded that if we evolved and the earth
was billions of years old, then Jesus was either
mistaken or a liar - because Jesus believed the
Genesis account of Creation. He spoke of the
Genesis Account as literal history. If Jesus was
either mistaken, or a liar, then that means HE WAS
NOT THE SON OF GOD. As a consequence,
Charles Templeton wound up rejecting the Christian
faith, became an outspoken atheist, and penned his
book "Farewell to God - my reasons for rejecting
the Christian faith."
So Mr. Robertson - this is not so much about
lynching you as it is calling your attention to the very
real dangers of what you said. You talked about
Carbon 14 and dinosaurs in one sentence as if they
both somehow proved a time much, much older
than 6,000 years old - Mr. Robertson - apparently
you haven't watched this show where we've talked
about carbon 14 IN dinosaur bones extensively. If
those dinosaur bones are millions of years old, there
should be NO carbon 14 in them - instead, Carbon
14 actually shows that the earth is only a few
thousand years old - not billions.
Lastly, Mr. Robertson obviously has never been to a
dinosaur excavation, or seen an actual dinosaur in
place, because then he would know that dinosaurs
provide POWERFUL evidence of the flood of
Noah. Let's review the matter in CrEvo Rant #17:
What happened to the dinosaurs.
We're always presented with the mystery
question:What was it that killed the dinosaurs?
Now, I've excavated dinosaurs in multiple locations
across North America - also dinosaur tracks. You
don't have to excavate very long to find the answer
to this question.
[swoosh]
[Truck Horn]
[ding]
[swoosh]
Hey- hold my beer!
[dinosaur roar]
Aaaaaa!
Hey - where you going? Get back here!
[ding]
[swoosh]
[sounds of tractor beam]
[thud]
[thud, thud, thud]
[squeezing, pop]
>>Marvin the martian: Oh goody! An earth creature!
[dinosaur roar]
[thumps and bangs]
[chickens clucking, dog barking, lion roaring]
[sound of cable winding]
[sound of UFO flying away]
[ding]
[swoosh]
Let's take a look at the evidence.
Now when we find dinosaurs and dinosaur bones,
we usually find different kinds of dinosaurs that have
been ripped apart and buried together. Now what
on earth would rip dinosaurs apart, and bury them
together?
[swoosh]
[rushing water]
[gurgling underwater]
[ding]
[swoosh]
[dinosaur making gasps, nervous]
ohhh not again...
[rushing asteroid]
[huge, long, loud explosion]
[ding]
[swoosh]
[dinosaur gasping in fear as he looks around]
[gong]
Hooonda!
Kawaaaasaki!
Yamaha!
Toyota!
YamaHA!
[dinosaur roar]
[dinosaur running off, then a crash]
[swoosh]
[ding]
[swoosh]
Out here in the badlands of Alberta, the evidence
speaks loudly and clearly: we find dinosaur bones
buried with fossil clams, which have been buried
alive in the closed position. Now we know by
research that clams can burrow out of surprisingly
deep sediments when they are rapidly buried.
Obviously, this was a catastrophic event involving
water.
We also find dinosaurs buried with their heads
pulled back in the "death pose" evidence of
asphyxiation and rapid burial. Well, asphyxiation
and rapid burial would certainly line up with ...a
flood!
In fact if you tour dinosaur museums, you'll notice
they acknowledge this fact. Over and over again as
you tour throughout these museums and read their
interpretive plaques, you'll notice they say "This
dinosaur drowned in a flood." "This herd of
dinosaurs drowned trying to cross a raging river."
"This dinosaur drowned in a lake."
Occasionally you'll see an outdated plaque that says
the dinosaurs pulled their heads back because they
"laid out in the desert, and the desert heat dried the
tendons in the back of the neck, thus pulling the
head back."
Wait a minute - we find CLAMS buried with the
dinosaurs. Last I checked, you don't find a lot of
clams out in the desert - especially not clams being
buried alive, in the desert.
After seeing the overwhelming evidence that it was a
flood that killed the dinosaurs, we are then fed the
line that it was an asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.
In fact, we're even told where the crater from this
asteroid was: It's supposedly on the Yucatan
peninsula, in Mexico, it's known as the chixulub
crater.
The layer at which these dinosaurs allegedly vanish
is known as the K/T boundary - K for Cretaceous,
T for Tertiary. It's marked with a rare mineral called
iridium. Of course iridium is found in asteroids, so
it's alleged that this iridium came from the asteroid
that impacted earth and killed the dinosaurs.
Problem #1: there's iridium found in layers both
above, AND below the K/T boundary. So - were
those also asteroid impacts? If they were, why did,
or did they not, kill off the dinosaurs then?
Problem #2: Iridium is also emitted in vast quantities
by volcanos! Therefore iridium does not necessarily
mean it was an asteroid impact.
Problem #3: An Alberta research team concluded
that some of the dinosaurs survived the K/T
extinction by - an evolutionary timescale - of
700,000 years! Wait a minute! If they survived for
700,000 years after the impact, do you really think
an asteroid impact had anything to do with the
demise of the dinosaurs?
Problem #4: Evolutionary researchers re-dated the
chixulub impact as 300,000 years PRIOR to the
K/T event! That's a MILLION YEARS before the
last dinosaurs became extinct, according to the
evolutionary timescale!
Having personally examined and excavated
dinosaurs in multiple locations, I can personally
attest to the evidence that states loudly the dinosaurs
were buried in a massive flood - in fact, for multiple
reasons I would say it was a world-wide flood! The
Morrison formation for example, which I have
excavated in, covers ten states and three Canadian
provinces! This was no meandering river - this was
a giant, watery catastrophe!
Well, the Bible talks about a world-wide flood! It
was judgment sent from God against an exceedingly
wicked people. But even in that judgment, God
was merciful. He sent His servant Noah to warn the
people, and spent 100 years of his life building a
giant ship called the ark of Noah. He warned the
people of the judgment to come. All they had to do
was believe and obey and get on the ark. That's all
they had to do. It was free salvation - provided by
God, for the people, so they could escape His
judgment. All they had to do was repent and
believe.
So what about all those people who didn't get on
the ark, and they died in the flood? Well, whose
fault was that? For 100 years they were warned of
judgment to come. The Bible tells us that God was
eventually the one who closed the door on the ark.
Now that ark is symbolic of the Lord Jesus Christ,
who warned us of a judgment to come, and that HE
was the salvation from that judgment to come. One
day Christ will return - the door to that salvation will
be closed: what side of that door will you be on?
Why don't you call upon Jesus today? Ask Him to
forgive you of your sins, and believe on Him and be
saved from the judgment to come?
[music]
So I present this information in hopes of enlightening
both Mr. Robertson and his viewers that it is
perfectly reasonable to accept that the fossil
dinosaurs, rather than refuting the Bible, are actually
BEST EXPLAINED by the history written in the
Bible, and a young earth, and not deep time!
[scary, dramatic music]
Wahoo! Mail for me?
[scary, dramatic music]
The "Age of the Earth" show obviously struck a
nerve, as it prompted an avalanche of feedback.
Excellent question; in short, according to evolution,
dinosaurs were supposed to have gone extinct at
least 60 million years before humans ever evolved,
yet in the Bible, God created the sea and land
creatures (such as the dinosaurs) on days 5 and 6 of
creation week, with humans on day 6. Thus if we
find evidence of humans and dinosaurs living
together, it affirms the Biblical account of Creation
and refutes evolution AND deep time.
One of my favourite youtube atheists commented on
the erosion rates argument:
And also YouTuber FactThis took issue with the
erosion rates and we had a brief exchange where he
provided further detailed argument. I have to edit it
for brevity, but you can read his comments in their
entirety on YouTube:
Let's break this down for a moment, starting with
"b.) tectonic forces raise the crust, acting as relief
(furthermore, we can still measure mountains rising
today), c) all mountains did NOT form at the same
time." Well, actually, your argument then is with
geomorphology experts Ollier and Pain, not I -
because they were the ones who provided some 20
reasons why ALL of the mountain ranges around the
world rose up at the same time! And actually I
discovered I made a BIG booboo in the Age of the
earth show: I had said
Ooops - they actually claimed it
was the Pliocene-Pleistocene, or 11,700 years ago
to 5.3 million years ago - within the context of an
old earth and deep time, that was yesterday. If you
are rejecting their conclusions, then I assume you
must have an answer for each of their 20 reasons
why they said what they did?
But that's okay - if you wish to reject their ages, let's
use some other ages - we just covered a report in
Science magazine where the authors claimed Grand
Canyon was cut approximately to its present
elevation 70 million years ago. Let's use that age
instead. You also claimed that erosion rates in the
past were different than they are today - an excellent
argument against uniformitarian ideas, and I couldn't
agree more - but wait a minute; while you
acknowledged that the rates could be faster in the
past, you stuck to the assumptions of SLOWER
erosion rates in the past. Good and proper science
asks the question "What was the erosion rate in the
past?" I can provide numerous lines of evidence that
erosion rates in the past were millions of times faster
than they are today - water gaps and wind gaps,
planation surfaces, quartzite boulders with
percussion marks, giant wave ripples, etc... -
geomorphological principles you apparently ignored!
Grand Canyon had to have been cut in days to
weeks - if you miraculously raise the Colorado river
up 3,000 feet to crest the uplift, then you have a
gigantic lake which now catastrophically dumps,
rapidly cutting the canyon - probably in days to
weeks. It's pretty simple logic.
But nevertheless, I'll oblige your figures. According
to Judson and Ritter, actual measured erosion rates were
between 1.5 inches/thousand years and 6.5
inches/thousand years. Let's be as favourable to
deep time as possible, and go with a figure smaller
than their smallest: let's assume an erosion rate of
0.03 milimeters per year. That works out to about
2,100 meters of erosion in 70 million years at Grand
Canyon - that's about 7,000 feet of rocks eroded
away in that time. You could say that accounts for
the upper layers of the Grand Staircase which were
eroded away - excellent! Why did it all erode away
here, and not here? Aaaand - what about the
Colorado River basin? Is the mighty Colorado river
eroding more, or less than the rainfall on the land
surface? Obviously more - but if we use our
unrealistically small figures, in that same 70 million
years, you would have eroded the bottom of Grand
Canyon to 4,500 feet BELOW SEA LEVEL. You
cannot have your cake and eat it too.
The moment you start to invoke millions of years,
you produce millions of problems.
you also tried to allege rock cycles - you want the
continents going up and down, with erosion
removing rock, and then subduction of the
continents putting the eroded rocks back onto the
continents, well wait, that doesn't just destroy and
recycle the rock, it would also destroy the fossils in
the rock. Yet we find both allegedly old and young
fossils within those rocks. As you can see, there are
numerous, insurmountable problems you run into
when trying to explain away rapid erosion rates.
I'd suggest thorough background reading before
making your next comment.
There is so much more I want to discuss - but we
are out of time, I'm your host, Ian Juby, thanks for
joining me and I hope you'll join me again next
Genesis Week. You can send in your feedback in a
number of ways. Remember those words of our
Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ who said "I am the
way, the truth, and the life - no man comes to the
Father but through me." See you next week.
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