>>> Coming up next on "Arizona
Horizon," we'll look at a new
poll that shows senator John
McCain at his lowest job
approval rating in 21 years.
We'll hear from APS on a recent
survey that suggests a
disconnect between the utility
and its solar energy supporting
consumers.
And we'll meet internationally
known ceramic artist Wayne
Higby.
Those stories, Next on "Arizona
Horizon."
>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
the friends of 8, members of
your Arizona PBS station.
Thank you.
>>> Good evening and welcome to
"Arizona Horizon."
I'm Ted Simons.
Senator John McCain's job
approval ratings are at their
lowest in 21 years.
That's according to a poll
released earlier this week by
the Phoenix-based Behavior
Research Center.
Joining us now is Jim Haynes,
president and CEO of Behavior
Research Center.
It's good to see you.
Thanks for joining us.
>> Always a pleasure.
>> Lowest approval rating in 21
years.
Let's start with when this poll
was taken.
Before immigration, background
checks?
>> Before both.
>> What do we take from that?
>> The main thing I take from
it is that people are down
generally with regard to
incumbent politicians.
We see that with relatively low
numbers for the governor, we
see it all over the country
with incumbent senators,
governors.
People just aren't happy.
It goes with their whole
attitude about the economy.
They're not pleased with where
things are.
>> As far as McCain is
concerned, is it job
performance?
Is it personality?
Fatigue?
>> It could be any of the three
of those, yes.
The senator has always been a
Maverick.
He doesn't follow party lines.
There's been a lot of appealing
things about him throughout his
career but every time you kind
of stray from the farm, you
pick up some animosity.
So I don't know what it is.
>> It sounds like from what
your survey shows, for some
Republicans, he's not enough of
a conservative.
For some Democrats, he's not
enough of a Maverick.
He's not enough of some things
for people.
>> Another way of saying it to
some Republicans, he's not
enough of a Republican and to
some democrats, he's still a
Republican.
>> There you go.
>> That's the price a Maverick
is going to pay and senator
McCain has always realized
that.
He's his own man.
But at the end of the day, it's
still not an indicator of
whether he can or will be
re-elected.
>> As far as McCain's numbers
historically, 21-year low here
but does it ebb and flow with
him?
>> It ebbs and flows from about
2005, 2006, it's been on kind
of a downhill slide.
That's also not unusual for a
long-term incumbent.
You may recall senator
Goldwater in his last run for
office almost got beat at the
end of the night.
Most of us thought Phil Schultz
was the senator.
And, you know, it's hard.
>> We mentioned pre or post
immigration reform bill.
You have another survey
regarding immigration.
Tell us about that and about
how that may factor into the
next polls about senator
McCain.
>> I think it's surprising,
it's going to be surprising to
a lot of people.
Three quarters of Arizonans
support a path to citizenship
for illegal immigrants that are
in the country now based on
four criteria that they have no
criminal record, that they pay
taxes, that they register their
presence here, and that they
learn to speak English.
What we did was take all the
normal objections of kind of
anti-immigrant groups and say
okay, let's take them off the
table.
Now, what do you think?
And the public said no problem.
They feel the same way with
respect to a path for work
permits for those that aren't
interested in membership, that
just want to come here and
work.
I think the senators,
leadership on those issues is
going to bode very well for it.
I think he's on Arizona's side,
on those issues.
>> As far as the immigration
poll is concerned, specifically
those numbers, changes
different than what you've seen
in the past or is that a
different question?
>> We haven't asked the same
question in the past.
We asked this particular
question and the way we did it
because we were kind of
interested in what the field
organization did in California
a couple of months ago.
Results came out very similar.
So, you know, I think it's
interesting that it paints a
different picture of the
average Arizonian that most of
the rest of the country has
been getting the last few
years.
>> Last question, numbers for
McCain, lowest in 21 years.
However, that does not mean
that he's in necessarily
political trouble when it comes
to re-election, correct?
>> That's exactly right.
That's what I meant when I said
it's not an indicator.
At the end of the day, at the
next election, there's going to
be somebody else running
against him and it's going to
be senator John McCain or
candidate a.
So this poll in itself doesn't
address that.
>> If candidate a doesn't do it
either, McCain could very
well get your vote?
>> Most probably would get your
vote because he's a known
quantity.
>> There you go.
>> Good to have you here,
thanks for joining us.
>> Always enjoy it.
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>>> A recent poll shows
widespread support for solar
power and opposition to
programs that limit choice for
solar supporting energy
consumers.
Last week, we discussed the
poll and heard criticism of APS
regarding the future of solar
energy.
Tonight, we hear from Arizona
Public Service.
Joining me are Mark Schiavoni,
executive vice president of
operations for APS, and Jeff
Guldner, APS senior
vice-president for customers
and regulation.
Good to have you both here.
Thanks for joining us.
>> Good to be here.
>> Jeff we'll start with you
regarding this widespread
support for solar choice and
widespread opposition to some
programs that APS seems to
support.
What do you see?
>> Well, ted, we know that our
customers like and support
solar energy.
APS has been doing solar for 60
years.
By the end of this year, we'll
have 700 mega-watts of solar
split between rooftop solar
systems as well as large-scale
solar plants like the one being
built near Gila bend and
smaller solar plants that APS
owns.
The issue we're really talking
about is how to ensure that
solar energy in Arizona is
sustainable and part of that
discussion involves a policy
called net metering.
It's one of the ways to subside
size rooftop solar systems so
it can be part of the energy
mix in Arizona and that's
really one of our strengths is
we've got a diversified
portfolio of nuclear, coal and
natural gas as well as rooftop
and larger-scale solar plants.
>> Net metering, let's define
it, that's basically where the
rooftop customer basically
sells power back to APS,
correct?
>> That is correct.
>> And what would be the
problem here?
>> Well, the problem, it really
is a cost issue.
So you have a rooftop solar on
your home.
And you have a certain amount
that your home consumes.
If your system during that time
frame generates more than what
your home consumes, it goes
back to the grid.
When it goes back to the grid,
then you're being paid for that
power going back to the grid
and this is where the problem
lies.
You're not being paid for any
of the wires, the transformers,
the poles, the infrastructure
for transferring that power
back to the grid.
You're not paying for us to be
on standby, if something
happens, you still need our
power to flow to you.
You're not disconnected from
the grid and what's happening
is that cost, those fixed costs
for the wires, the poles, are
being paid for by the customer
that doesn't have it.
>> So the thing that is taking
place, how do you balance that
out when we have folks like we
did last week basically saying
that what you're trying to do
there is you're killing rooftop
solar in Arizona.
>> You're not killing rooftop
solar.
We haven't proposed anything in
terms of resolving it.
What we've got right now is a
situation where the customers
who are putting the rooftop
solar on can avoid all of the
costs of that infrastructure
and the rooftop panels don't
work without all of that
infrastructure being there from
the transmission system back to
the power plant.
And so if they're not paying
for it, then other customers
are paying for it.
It becomes an issue of balance.
I think it would be tragic in
Arizona with our solar
resources for us to have the
equivalent of a housing bubble
burst because we didn't
understand the cost
implications of a policy like
that metering.
We just want to understand
that, talk to the stakeholders
about it, see what a potential
solution would be going forward
that could help make that
sustainable.
>> What would a potential
solution be?
>> The solutions that have come
to the table, let's stop the
bickering and throwing of
stones and let's have a
dialogue.
The real problem in our -- from
our perspective is you have to
understand what the costs of
all those services are and I
think once all the customers
understand the cost of buying
electricity, they'll understand
that there's a way to solve
this problem.
It may be how you look at
transmission, it may be some of
the distributions, there's some
place where you can find net
metering.
We believe in paying for the
service that that customer's
providing to another customer
or to the grid.
>> How do you balance out the
cost shifting now with future
avoided costs provided more
people go solar, less demand
for power plants and such down
the road?
It seems like a lot of folks
are going solar and the
argument is that the more that
go solar, the less they need
APS, APS will take the hit,
that's what we're hearing.
>> That's really the question
because right now, you're not
removing any of the
infrastructure once you put the
solar panels on.
You may avoid some future
infrastructure and should the
policy makers give a value, we
don't do that when we construct
the resource today.
But what we know is the cost
for the existing system is all
here, it's not going away.
So it's really then about
fairly allocating that cost
between customers who put
rooftop panels on, may benefit
us in the future and customers
that don't.
>> It's a generation resource
and you need to treat as a
generation resource like we
have generation, the nuclear
power plant, it's a source of
generation, and you have to
treat it as a source of
generation and pay for that
generation as that source.
We agree there may be some
other costs in the future that
you can look at, but we don't
know what it looks like because
we don't know where solar's
going to be in the future, how
many homes, what areas and so
on.
It's hard to understand
infrastructure.
On the distribution network, we
don't believe there's going to
be much savings in that
respect.
The savings we make if there's
going to be savings will be in
the transmission system.
So if the dialogue that has to
take place to come to closure
on where do you think those
may --
>> To get that dialogue started
we talked about the poll last
week, the idea that APS is a
monopoly and it wants to end
consumer choice on how folks
get electricity.
>> They've figured out that
every time a consumer in
Arizona puts solar panels on
their roof, APS sells a little
bit less electricity and that's
doesn't work for a monopoly
that never had to deal with
that before so they're trying
to take away that choice and
that option.
>> Respond please.
>> The word option I find
interesting because customers
have always had an option.
People have been putting solar
on their roofs long before net
metering took place.
They absorbed the cost of that.
Today, they're asking their
neighbors to absorb the costs
of what they're doing.
It's a little bit different
today than what you may have
done 20 years ago.
I don't agree that they're
losing choice.
I think the customers still
have choice.
This is really a cost issue and
it's who's going to subsidize
the cost for that power that's
returned to the grid.
>> And I hear subsidy also
coming from the other side,
basically saying that the more
again the more they go solar,
the less profit comes into APS,
the less revenue that comes
into APS, and then they're
winding up thinking they are
subsidizing APS when the whole
world is going solar.
How do you respond to that?
>> As the revenues are reduced
from people going into solar,
the infrastructure doesn't
change.
If you still have that
infrastructure, that's the
critical thing to understand
with rooftop solar systems and
with net metering, the
infrastructure has to be there
for it to work.
You get back into the
fundamental fairness question
that someone has to pay for
that infrastructure.
If you're a regulated utility,
the infrastructure is paid for
by the customers that don't
have solar on their system.
You can solve that by valuing
the solar in a certain way and
make it a sustainable policy.
That's really the discussion
that we're having.
>> And I believe there was a
California study looking at the
future of distributed energy
and they factored in future
benefits, they factored in
infrastructure, as well, they
saw that there were benefits
for all rate-payers, not just
we hear a lot that the rich are
benefiting from this and the
poor will get hurt.
They're saying because of these
avoided future costs that
things do tend to even out.
Are you buying that?
>> There's many studies out
there today, including the one
you're talking about.
There are benefits.
There's no question, solar
provides a benefit whether it's
on a roof or sitting out in
Gila bend.
We wouldn't argue about the
benefit.
There's some environmental
benefit.
How do you put a cost on that?
You don't know that until you
get to that point.
That's part of the challenge
you have.
So I would disagree in concept
with the outcome of that study
because I think it's used as a
predictor and we don't know yet
what those costs will look like
in the future.
>> One of the things we're
talking about in that study is
simply the excess energy that's
generated.
They're not looking at the cost
shift that occurs when
customers aren't paying for the
cost of that system.
So in the California example,
the utilities they're talking
about a $1.2 billion per year
shift in costs that's not being
discussed in that particular
study.
>> And real quickly when you
have that kind of added load to
those that don't have sole,
doesn't it become a perpetual
machine?
I'm going to want more solar
and thus again, less comes --
does APS have to look at this
in the future?
Is this a business model that
can sustain itself?
>> We don't think it's a model
that can sustain itself, your
rates will continue to increase
for those that don't have soler
and eventually, as Jeff
mentioned earlier, the housing
bubble is the great example,
everything collapses around it.
Now's the time to fix it.
There's 16,000, roughly 16,000
customers that have it today.
We've got to get ahead of it
because to your point, as
people see this, they're going
to say I want it and somebody's
got to pay for it.
>> We have 30 seconds left.
If I'm thinking of putting
rooftop solar on, if I've got
it on, are an antagonist?
Who are you?
>> If you're a supporter of
long term solar energy in
Arizona, you've got to find a
sustainable solution.
You should follow the debate,
you should watch what's
happening, participate in the
debate if you want, it's going
to go from us to the
corporation commission for
discussion of the policy but
we're looking for a solution to
something so that this can
sustained in the long term.
>> If I could, solar's an
important part of our future.
It'sen everything we provide to
the Arizona corporation
commission as far as our
resource planning, we want
solar to be sustained.
We just have to find the right
way to do this.
>> It's good to have you both
here, thanks for joining us.
>> Thank you.
>>> Tonight's edition of
“Arizona Artbeat” looks at the
work of internationally known
ceramic artist Wayne Higby, who
uses ceramic vessels for
evocative landscape imagery.
We welcome Wayne Higby to
"Arizona Horizon."
>>> It's good to have you here.
Thanks for joining us.
>> Thank you Ted.
>> Now, I was reading up on you
and I heard this quote,
meditation on the relationship
between mind and matter.
Is that what you do?
>> I think that's probably what
we all do but I focus on that
to some extent in my ideas.
>> Explain exactly what you do,
what you're trying to
accomplish.
What do we take away?
>> My work has been a
relationship to the American
landscape and it draws
resources from the history of
American landscape art but more
than that I think for me it's
been the physicality of
materials and processes and I
work with my hands and make
these things but the
imagination is certainly a part
of that process.
Imagination is my mind, so
connected to your imagination
is this meditation on material
process and mind.
>> Interesting.
Why landscapes?
>> I was born in Colorado
springs and I grew up there, an
only child, had a horse.
I guess that pretty much
explains that part.
>> Well, that's interesting.
How does an only child with a
horse -- did you do like the
rest of us as kids, a little
glazed thing in pottery?
>> Yes, I think so.
I think in particular perhaps
as an only child, I didn't have
that many people to talk to, I
didn't have brothers or sisters
but I worked with sticks and
paper and glue and they spoke
to me.
I think clay of course, I
remember that first lump of wet
clay and pressing my thumb into
it, and having it say hello,
you must be Wayne, from that
point we have a information.
Materials and processes have
always been that conversational
other, a sense of how I
communicate with myself, and
now how I communicate with
other people.
>> And some of your art, I
think we have a chance to take
a look at some of your artwork
here.
What do we look for?
Obviously, there's landscape
elements here but what do we
look for when we look at
ceramics, when we look at
pottery, this form of art?
>> I always say an art
professor will have a lot of
students and I encourage them
not to look for anything.
I encourage them just to be
vulnerable to looking, come and
have an experience, don't
project, try to just enjoy what
you're seeing.
And I think if that can happen,
you will be able to receive
whatever the work is saying.
>> And it's the same thing when
you do architectural
installations, just let it wash
over you?
>> Let it come in.
Be vulnerable to it.
You don't have to immediately
decide what it is.
But enjoy it and certainly pay
attention, you know.
As a craftsman I always say
craft is the art of paying
attention and paying attention
to where you are, what you're
involved in, what you see is a
way of being vulnerable to the
world, having it come in.
>> With that in mind, do you
wait for the muse or do you go
sit down every day and find the
muse?
>> Well, I don't wait for the
muse but I think in that sense
being an artist is a job, you
go to work.
Some days you want to be there,
some days you don't but you
start working and as you start
working, things begin to happen
and all of a sudden, you're
working in and it takes care of
itself.
>> So for a work day for you,
get up early, work all day, get
up early do other things, work
all afternoon and evening?
>> I've been teaching for 40
years at alfred university and
they have what is considered
what the world's most famous
ceramic arts program.
I can't up and I go there every
morning three days a week and I
teach all day.
Then on the other days, I go to
my studio very early and I work
very early and sometimes, I'll
get a phone call that says it's
time to eat.
>> Is it important for an
artist, any artist, to have
that connection with people,
students or just going out to
lunch and living -- working as
an insurance agent?
Having that connection as
opposed to being the artist
ensconced in his studio?
>> I think you need both.
I think you need -- one thing,
artist's work, it's pretty
lonely.
But I think the network of
other artists, knowing other
artists and communicating with
other artists is very important
to continue to kind of keep
things moving and keep you
engaged.
So it's a combination and it's
like, you know, working but
also enjoying the idea you
might have an audience.
>> And someone who wants to
look at your work, we have an
exhibit this weekend?
>> The retrospective opens this
weekend, it shows the past 50
years of my work, 60 pieces in
the exhibition.
On Saturday the 27th, I think
at the asu
art museum.
>> And this is a considerable
volume here, a catalog, a life
history, the whole nine yards.
Well, congratulations on a
wonderful career and good luck
with the exhibit here in
Arizona and I hope you enjoy
your stay.
>> It's wonderful here.
>> Very good, thank you.
>> And that is it for now.
I'm Ted Simons, thank you so
much for joining us.
You have a great evening.
>>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
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your Arizona PBS station.
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