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due process winner of 21 regional Emmy Awards
including the 2010 New York Emmy for our coverage of voting rights
and the 2012 mid-atlantic Emmys for outstanding interview special
and outstanding discussion series due process is a presentation
Rutgers School of Law Newark and the Edward J blasting School of Planning
and public policy studio facilities provided by
the Rutgers on TV studio Division of Continuing Studies
or picked up the phone
%uh 10
Obama signed or a warm inside you make your voice heard
a new man this so the votes
were counted the victor declared the long campaign
over the questions about how we choose a president
those go on the American Way a voting
could there be a better way the electoral college
and more on this edition have due process
major funding for due process provided by the fun for New Jersey
supporting inform citizens for an effective democracy
an unprecedented number of dollars were spent
a record number of votes were cast and with the popular vote was counted
just 3 percentage points dude between the winner
and the loser and how did Barack Obama walk away with more than 60 percent
up the electoral votes I'm Sandra King and that's just one of the
all election questions will tackle in the next half hour
beginning with what may be the artist the mall
the electoral college what is this thing anyway
we start our answer with the help of FileMaker CGP grey
who explains just how the Electoral College works
are election day
when Americans everywhere cast their ballot for the next president of the
United States
except not really Americans don't directly but for president
so what's happening on election day 10 it's a bit complicated because it's
something called the electoral college
to keep things simple for now think the Electoral College is the collection of
538 votes to determine who the president in the United States will be
why 538 because that's the number senators 100% positive for
representatives 438 in congress
why there 430 represented in Congress stop asking so many questions right now
we're trying to keep the simple
these 538 votes in the electoral college aren't given to the citizens directly
but are instead divided among the state's
so how does the electoral college without the votes each state no matter
how populous
or not gets three votes to start the remaining votes are given out roughly in
proportion to the population at the state's
the more people the state has the more votes it gets here's a map of the United
States showing the voting power each state has been making one hexagon equal
to 1 Electoral College vote for president
because electoral college votes mostly they're not completely scale a
population
it's also a map of where people live with the bonus given to the smaller
states to make them a bit bigger than they would otherwise be
in early November when citizens go to the polls they are voting for president
directly but they're really telling their state how they want it to use
its electoral votes forty-eight of the fifty states give other electoral
college votes to the candidate who wins a majority in their state
take florida for example which has 29 electoral college votes
if a candidate wins a majority no matter how small that majority he gets all the
votes
to the pat's the White House is clear with enough majorities in enough States
to get more than half of the electoral college votes
and you get to sit at the big desk
and Barack Obama gets that big desk for another four years
now you may find that cause for elation or despair
but either way you may well have doubts about way we vote
is it really as democratic with a small D as it could be
Thomas genteel one-time campaign coordinator for rudy giuliani
an activist with the conservative Federalist Society has some thoughts
about back so does wreckers profs mark coarser
dean of the school of public affairs & Administration whose work on government
performance and productivity
has included our way of electing our leaders welcome
to you both and let me start by asking you mark
have we just saw a little love
rundown on the electoral college I
firstly do many of us know what
to our friend great was trying to to
to in part to us there and doesn't make sense
well first evolved many of us do not know what the Electoral College
represents
I think probably ninety-nine percent
firm voters feel they're just building democratic with a small D
and that they have equal weight with others
IBC now paid they don't have equal weight
obviously I'm Benny arm me the election is skewed
in effect because the Electoral College is based on the premise that
the voters can't be trusted in effect
you know the founders created the electoral college I
has a check on the voters and that means that it's open to manipulation
ineffective said at least a couple things wrong with it that
that could really undermined the legitimacy of the system when is if you
win the
electoral college but you lose the popular vote and that happens over and
over which is
very likely thing then voters will lose trust in in the system
but I'm so that that's one major problem with
this system the other is what can happen after the vote
I'm that what I was worried about with this book was that
if Obama had won you know the electric cars without winning the popular
vote then the I'm Republican Party might have reversed its position from 2000
and I'm try to influence on the electors
2000 course being both the most recent and the most
dramatic for example we've had I think they've been for anarchist exactly
and I'm gore Bush being that the one that
we all lived through and I
have a feeling Tom that as your listening to mark talk about the issue
saying now he's got it wrong
well I think there are a lot of benefits to the electoral college system
the first is that it benefits the legitimacy
of our democracy in that it requires
successful presidential candidate to achieve support
from a broader coalition above Americans than a direct popular vote
would require he regional candidate work at the who draws his support only from
one particular
base in the country cannot win under the electoral college
go some other us from region like this one a
in fact have our votes discounted well the votes are discounted because that
big pile of electoral votes from New Jersey
did end up in Barack Obama's call so the votes that were cast in New Jersey
certainly didn't matter they certainly contributed to putting
Barack Obama of over-the-top Barack Obama's
victory in this collection is legitimized by the fact that he won
States
like Ohio like Florida which he was required to campaign in and fight for
because have the Electoral College there's a lot division in this country
a lot of the Romney supporters are not happy with the result a matching level
up to fusion
that we would be experiencing right now if Barack Obama had been able to win
simply by turning out
olive democratic votes that could be found in New York Los Angeles Chicago
and a few other urban centres
no Electoral College require him to go to places like Iowa
and new hampshire and anyone who's unhappy with
the Victoria Barack Obama questions the legitimacy
the victory has to face up to the fact that Barack Obama one
Ohio new hampshire happy about the fact that all we heard about
in the last weeks of the election what's Ohio
well that's exactly it I'm the electoral college because I love the way
you know the way things break arm means that you can just emphasize a few states
r-ohio Florida you even with incumbent late other
ok you know other a few other states like Colorado
arm for example but these are the Ohio boat was a
worth more than the New Jersey for yeah absolutely bit
I mean what happened with both candidates as you saw these maps
I at the in the last few weeks they would just bouncing around nine states
arm the other states were ignored and there were many states where neither
candidate visited for the entire
you know electoral process arm so I think the Electoral College is not
serving us well
army it's just narrowing us down to fights
in fights in few states I'm and it's not really
providing exposure the candidates arm nationally whether it's in person or on
TV
I want to give Tom a chance to answer that but first why we're still on the
electoral college
let's turn to an excerpt from the trio pictures documentary
electoral dysfunction with the very funny Morocco
do you know where I can find the electoral college
no I'm from Tennessee for the presidential race did you cast your
ballot for David or for band
for David for Ben
mile
gee I didn't think about David Beckham you're voting for somebody to actually
vote for
your candidate so and you were aware that he's won the electors
yeah
actually and say ended up casting about for
Corbin and ten other Obama like doors
yes so that on December 15 they can vote for Barack Obama
and I make sense
really no not at all as it happens most people didn't know who David in band
work
or on the role the Electoral College plays in shaping the candidates strategy
they just want to out
so Tom getting back to what I know you were
anxious to say to mark a that factor in
what I think was a pretty I'm astute is clever
way via looking at the electoral college that people don't know about
they don't actually know that they're not voting directly for president is any
of that quest for
our I think that whereas most citizens might not know the mechanics
up the electoral college they don't know the names the slate of electors that
they're voting for
I think it's very deeply ingrained in the political culture at the united
states that we vote
for president as states I think that campaigning for state swimming for
winning
individual states is something that the average american voter does understand
and does appreciate it and it's something we all watch on election night
as the returns come in
state by state the question of swing states
needs to be addressed by looking at why individual swing states are so important
in each election and the reason is that the states that turn out to be swing
states
in any given year are a microcosm sup the nation of Ohio for example
and Florida as well are representative up the United States
as a whole are in the issues that are important
to people in the divisions between the two political parties within those
states
they are representative over the nation as a whole
and what I find fascinating is that overtime the swing states
change ten years ago no one would have imagined that we were talking about miss
you
as a possible swing state and believe it or not it was only as recently as
nineteen
eighty 8 that a republican george HW Bush one california
so the swing states do change over time every state gets their turn
to be the focus up attention and it's valuable to have the issues
studied closely and voted on in those crucible said how did we get this
electoral college we got this electoral college because the founding fathers in
drafting the Constitution were concerned
that one candidate could win the presidency
by securing support only from
one small part of the nation in the early years of our republic
the concern was North versus South now it's different now we talk about the
costs versus the center of the country right
and what are the interesting pieces that I bread in the washington post on this
subject says
no it wasn't to protect the small states it was to protect the slave states
which have small populations
%uh voting eligible people but large populations if you can't read
the slaves as three-fifths other a human being of course
let boat but you camp this treatise human being
a should that be a consideration mark as we look at whether or not
to hold the sacrosanct well-handled think we should give disproportionate
way to any states
I'm you're right now we do that because feet there's a minimum of three
electoral votes to go to any
yeah any state I'm because the two senators in the one
when representative that they have I'm but I think this is
the electric car is really function a elitism um
and and and it was I can go back to that point that
it was a distrust above the the average voter
never remember that only property owners could vote arm
when the Electoral College was created arm it took years
i'm for you white male not property owners to get the right to vote
bennett ok much longer time for went again
the right to vote and for you know african-americans to
be allowed to vote and we're still fighting that bad of
I'm you know whether the I can be.
displaced from the polls whether they think they can be discouraged from
voting and no
in a sense which goes back to what was done in South for
yep for a long long time reconstruction and you know
and thereafter so if you were calling the shots would you have
roadway yes I want because I think that in in terms of
the legitimacy the system people going to want to
to know that their vote camps equally any possibility that it could get thrown
away
given the fact that it is embedded in the constitution
and given the fact that you need thirty eight states including some of those
small states the count on it well
realistically maybe not near future but if you look at the long-term
we are the only country in the world that has such a system
are it's just not liable in terms of car
representing democracy as a legitimate for new graph
arm Jenna bit premise government I'm
you know for the rest of the world I mean how can we argue that we are fully
democratic
when we have this intermediate re nobody
what about the
possibility because I don't think we can get returns
the electoral college but we don't have to apportion are electors as we do
the thought about that on whether there might be a better way to do it
well that are winner-take-all which we have in forty-eight of the fifty states
well some states have given consideration to adopting the model that
mean in nebraska
have already taken on this discussion has been particularly intense in
pennsylvania
the idea of allotting the electors in a different way by percentage of the
popular vote the state
or by congressional districts make more sense to you
I think that we have to recognize that attempts to change the system
in that way will be motivated by political considerations
I have therefore are and and therefore it's going to be
are a tough test of the Electoral College to see if it can withstand such
changes
well there are so many misconceptions about voting
beginning with are very right to vote a right that our friends from
electoral dysfunction went looking for with some tongue in cheek help
from Morocco luckily we happened upon
a giant copy of the Constitution and went to work
Europe an article one is there anything there
wrong copy of this is because it is the closest
19th is is dat yeah I know Sam I think you're ever in congress right here
any voting their fines stuff yeah
nothing about supporting yes today
yeah I couldn't find anything but even using a high-tech magnifying device we
were coming up empty
I decided I need help from an expert I've been looking all over the
Constitution
for the right to vote and i cant find it I'm not surprised
its there is no right to vote on the Constitution you not kidding me
no I'm not getting you on the
Constitution at the nations birth
made no mention or voting rights whatsoever
did they just forget to no looting forget to
the they were unsure in fact whether voting was a right or privilege
ever was a right they weren't sure school right actually belong to
this constitutional silence on the right to vote
puts the US in the company in nations like Libya
Iran in Indonesia
well set up talking about the way we vote the Electoral College is only one
other
interesting things a then what are the things that we do differently from
most of the world I the question up when we vote
this idea I've Tuesday
one day all that we've party the country's moved away from it
New Jersey still pretty much there is that something we should be looking at
Mark we look at making better government more democratic voting
what about this idea at having 8 Tuesday
will be go to vote why not a Saturday or Sunday or both
wind up to 60 days before that Tuesday
that's our next question is pretty clear that people
want to do that arm that then the state's
across country that allow that other was very heavy early voting
I in the states it didn't eleven million votes where track were cast before we
ever got to election day which is fascinating
right and have in the states that did not allow that
or breathe a word attempt to limit that
see how severely there was strong objections and their demands for early
going I think we can see much more early voting
you know the next time around I'm totally do away
you know there is the the possibility of just voting by
email no you shouldn't do should do away with it because there are many people
who feel
they want to walk into the voting booth they want to well
pull the lever if they're still alive because they know are put something in a
box
or a vote on a screen or whatever that symbolic so keep it for those people
sure thats Telugu that certain have you know
keep don't want to say he had deleted you need an ending point
keep it on a Tuesday or move it to a weekend I don't think would make much of
a difference
to move it to a weekend I think more people would turnout no I think that the
turnout would be constant I think that we've seen repeatedly
cut through recent history that attempts to increase
turnout through mechanisms to make it easier for people to vote
have essentially resulted in the same turnout in the same proportion
among political parties so many people who say not a presidential
day which you know I think people take a little more seriously but certainly when
it comes to school board elections in local elections
and you say did you vote and they say I had to go to work
and I kelman time why not make either Saturday or Sunday is this a
a a nod to religion
that we don't schedule these things on a Saturday or Sunday
I saw your offending one religion or another
I i think that moving the election to Saturday or Sunday
um would conceivably make it more convenient for some people but I don't
think you would have a
market impact on the Turnhout
out that people would have I think what and what about our vote because I think
much of what we're talking about here
reflex a different political outlook from each review
I and you know somewhat predictable when we talk about something like the
electoral college
but we talk about early voting is separate from mark on that too
I think that the mechanisms employed for early voting
have to be executed in a way that maintains the integrity of the vote
home for example we mention the possibility of email voting
I think a mechanism to vote electronically and remotely
could be viable if it is done in a way that make sure that the body secure
but to allow anyone who has any email address to go cast a vote
I you know I think that the like pay pal
right we all use Pay Pal
and we trust and we trusted and it can vet us in a matter I was about 10
seconds
I know whether we are lets and no whether we are home we
say we are right about that but you have Pay Pal
you have ATM's you have e-commerce you know
all this you know something with we've come to trust there's there's no
technical obstacle to people voting arm
electronically arm so in voting make sense
e-voting electronic voting make sense it also makes sense to me too
I have voting in person on the weekend I mean I would conclude the
election on a Sunday I think you get a much higher
turnout I'm there are many people who have difficulty
you know during the workweek I'm I think there are objections there are political
objections to that
because from frankly the black churches you know get out
heavy I'm every vote on you know on the sunday
before the election and you know that ken starr's
yeah things up on the other side sense but OK so they move on to one that SOB
more controversial and get not as Sam
as far-fetched as it might seem in that is compulsory voting
Australia doesn't Brazil does it you've got more than
30 countries that are doing it 10 that actually hold people responsible
with up penalties if you don't show up what do you think about that
well the argument for compulsory voting is the notion that a lot of people
don't take their responsibility to vote see exactly arm but there are a lot of
people who choose not to vote
com and I believe that they are right to make that expression
not vote over the right not to speak by not voting
is just as important as the right to go out and select can't
of course you know we don't know if arrested you can go to the polls
and not vote you just have to be there in
you you've got a show up unless you've got a really good
excuse so you don't like I think it creates a bureaucratic mess then or how
are people going to claim the excuses not to vote in the end you have to go
prove the validity of your excuse
are I think with regard to the notion have a
compulsory voting I think our systems working fine as it is
and you say well think about it
I'm not so sure of I'm in favor of compulsory voting
home but me for a different reason that these the system that we saw
was not working all that well on election day arm has problems
and now there's people show up at the polls and
they're not permitted to vote because their identification problems
which are only gonna get worse in states like Pennsylvania really do implement
you know these voter ID laws so I'm not sure we could fairly
implement arm compulsory Sony quickly when we come back here four years from
now
are we going to still be talking about whether our voting could be more
democratic well anything has changed
and I've got about fifteen seconds I think we'll still be talking about
things because in america we always strive to improve our democracy already
doing it for years from now
I think we're gonna find that there are more attempt to disenfranchise voters
through these ID laws and other mechanisms
four years from now it's only just begun then I think we have to be vigilant
about protecting our democracy well with so much more to say
that is it for this edition up to process but will be back next weekend
every week on the air and online you can see s
on demand on our YouTube channel on the NJ TV website
and starting this week on our new due process website
check us out on due process TV da tractors dot EDU
and watch us in real time on Sundays at 9:30 a.m. 7
and now every Tuesday night as well at 11:30
on JTV till then for Ray Brown about this one off I'm Sandra King
thanks for watching
first funds
the who envisions
more he said
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this
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