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Coming up next on "Arizona
Horizon," we remember the life
and work of visionary architect
Paolo Soleri, who died last week
at his Valley home.
Not everyone in the town of
Superior supports efforts to
build a massive copper mine in
the area.
We'll hear from town officials
opposed to the deal.
Those stories next on "Arizona
Horizon."
>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
the Friends of Eight, members of
your Arizona PBS station.
Thank you.
>>> Good evening, and welcome to
"Arizona Horizon," I'm Ted
Simons.
Famed architect Paolo Soleri
died last week at the age of 93.
He was perhaps best known for
"Arcosanti," an experimental
community north of Phoenix
designed to house a small city
on a small parcel of land.
Tonight we discuss the life and
legacy of Paolo Soleri.
Joining us is local architect
Vern Swaback, and also with us
is husband and wife team Roger
Tomalty and Mary Hoadley, who
worked directly with Soleri now
joining us tonight on "Arizona
Horizon."
Vern, I'll start with you, who
was Paolo Soleri?
>> He was a one-of-a-kind
individual who charted a course
that influenced much of the
world.
Far more so in other countries
than our own.
>> Interesting.
>> But he planted seeds that
were very much unlike what
anyone else was doing, in that
it was almost like he worked
backwards.
In other words, what could this
earth support.
And no matter how good your
ideas were, if you went beyond
that capacity, you should be
thinking differently.
So this was something very
divorced from today's
marketplace.
It's amazing how long he
sustained that and how much
interest that he achieved in the
lives of others.
>> Roger, talk about his vision,
what he wanted to accomplish.
You worked directly with him.
>> What did he talk about?
What did he dream about?
>> You know, Paolo, I never saw
Paolo as an architect.
I see him more as an urban
theorist.
He was almost driven about how
to demonstrate with a living
demonstration of how the built
environment impacts society.
He saw the built environment, if
it's done well, as architecture
if it's done well, it can uplift
the human condition.
He sees how again the built
environment impacts the
individual and society.
>> When you worked with him,
Mary, did he talk along those
lines?
Did he speak directly about
this?
>> Constantly.
And he was a driven man.
He was a guy with perseverence.
It was his personal conviction
that was able to draw tens of
thousands of people to
"Arcosanti," over 8,000 people
who helped put the concrete in
place.
It was his conviction that he
developed, he grew up in Torino,
Italy, as an urban guy.
He came out to the beautiful
open spaces and always stayed an
urban advocate for his whole
life.
That's his whole point, we need
to build better urban systems to
house the seven billion of us
equitably, so we can keep the
planet for all of us.
>> How did he wind up in
Arizona?
And how did "Arcosanti" wind up
here in Cordes Junction of all
places?
>> I'd like to comment on not
being an architect.
He demonstrated early in his
life that he could design
extraordinary buildings.
But he had a broader vision.
I define architecture as the
understanding of what all the
pieces add up to becomes.
His vision was so broad I don't
think he wanted to be
sidetracked with building
buildings.
My understanding is he came out
here to be apprenticed to Frank
Lloyd Wright.
He found a piece of land that he
could control, 600 acres?
>> 800 acres.
>> He searched for a number of
years, going out with
apprentices on weekends looking
for land.
He has his five acres in
Paradise Valley he acquired that
he built all of these
experimental buildings, trying
to make shelter in the desert
with minimal means.
It was during those years of
building he developed his urban
theory of architecture and
ecology working together.
He knew he needed to build a
larger facility to accommodate
the students coming, and also to
actually try to physically test
and demonstrate the concept he
was developing, that urban
systems should be bounded,
density come together, compact,
dense and save the open space
for all of us.
>> And you wanted to add to
that?
>> His studios were really an
extended family scale.
He had Paolo and his wife, 15 or
20 or 30 apprentices that were
there.
It was during the process.
When I talked about not being an
architect, I meant in the
standard mold of having a
client.
Paolo was an artist, a
craftsman, but an architect, a
philosopher.
But during his journey building
"Arcosanti," he really started
this idea of arcology.
He was hoping to demonstrate on
a very, very small scale, a
humble scale, a prototype of the
logistics of an urban system.
You can't do that with an
extended family group of 15 or
20.
You need a hundred, 200, a
thousand.
>> Did he see "Arcosanti" as a
perpetual work in progress?
Did it change over time?
People grew up there and some
folks expect X and see Y, and
others expect Y and see X.
>> It did constantly change over
time.
I'd say it was a perpetual
project.
I think it's extremely valuable
if it just keeps being on
construction forever.
It's a teaching place.
I see that almost as being more
profound than if you could get a
whole lot of money and finish it
up and try to occupy it.
I hope it gets a whole lot of
money to support what its work
is.
But it's a living -- on his
90th birthday, people lamented
it was only 2% or 3% completed.
Does somebody worry that the
child is only 2% complete?
It's complete in Day One,
especially in the clarity of his
ideas.
>> Was he ever frustrated
personally?
>> Well, he was a realist.
He understood what he was
proposing goes against the
status quo, the way architecture
is taught today.
And the standard architecture
schools.
I think he was always frustrated
that people didn't fully
recognize the importance of how
the city does impact everything.
>> In working with him, what did
frustrate him?
What challenged him?
We know the vision and the
optimism was there.
It had to be a couple of cloudy
days there, as well.
>> He often said if he knew it
was going to be such a long and
hard effort, he might never have
started.
And that's the testament to him,
that he had that optimism to
just secure a piece of land, 860
acres, and he paid for it in
three years.
He wasn't going to have a
mortgage hanging over his head.
He had a huge exhibit at the
Corcoran museum in Washington,
D.C.
It attracted the attention of
the world and that exhibit went
to the Whitney in New York, it
went to Canada, Chicago,
Florida, Berkeley.
It traveled around.
Paolo traveled around, he was
trying to get together $300,000
to pay off the land.
Students signed up to come to
five- and six-week programs and
that's how construction started.
That's what he learned from
Frank Lloyd wright.
How to get people to come and
pay to work, but be inspired,
learning by doing, being
grounded, the hand, those were
so critical to Paolo.
>> It's the process of becoming,
the teaching and learning, it is
the backbone of the "Arcosanti"
project.
To me it's not important that
you built the infrastructure for
5,000 people, let the experiment
begin.
That's irrelevant.
It's the constant flow of young
minds being touched and they are
experiencing something that's
quite unusual.
>> He had to really almost take
for granted that people would
not be flocking to his aid,
because really, he wasn't
exactly trying to bridge out to
local builders and whatever.
He wasn't trying hard to fit in.
He was basically blazing a trail
that was rooted in a deep belief
that was totally contrary to the
market forces.
So you don't expect somebody to
knock on your door saying, hey,
I think this is just ducky.
>> And we are a nonprofit
educational foundation for
architectural research.
And in this environment, all of
our funds are basically
self-generated.
To accumulate the funds, enough
funds to actually build this
structure for, say, 2,000
people, 5,000 people, 7,000
people, it's quite a challenge.
>> What is the view of Paolo?
How do other architects and
artists and others see his work?
>> It's a very good question,
because, you know, for most of
the architectural world you
could look at each other kind of
incrementally.
That's a good building, that
person did better here.
Paolo was in a class by himself.
The "New York Times" says he is
the prophet in the desert and we
have not been listening.
They are not saying that about
any other architect.
A lot of the prophets haven't
fared to well in history, as you
know.
You either have to take him in
his own world and appreciate him
and be inspired by that.
And what other architects can
get from that, is find a way
that they can apply in some
fashion something they have been
inspired to do because of his
work.
It simply wasn't his task, I
don't believe it was his task to
make it happen in the here and
now, although his drawings are
so incredible, one of his most
recent projects, the city I
think is almost ready to be
built just as it is.
That is really very much in
keeping with forces going on.
>> And the city is the evolution
of his arcology idea.
It went from dense urban
conditions.
He started to add large scale
greenhouses to solve the local
energy issue.
Then he started to think about
how we move ourselves around the
planet.
He's always been against the
automobile and the highway
system that needs to get people
around.
And it was through that process
that he ended up with a lean
linear city, urban ribbons
through the landscape to, bring
the city to the country.
Save farmland, but bring those
urban amenities that are so
important for a rich individual
and social life.
>> I see in "Arcosanti" an
amazing example.
If you take a five-acre site and
you have one little house in the
middle that's empty most of the
time.
And you go to Arcosanti, you see
a foundry, a gift shop,
galleries, where people are
living.
This is really a teeming kind of
enterprise in which you can
eliminate the back-and-forth
commute, reduce the number of
cars and energy you use.
It is a living example all by
itself.
>> Before we go, I know there's
a film.
Talk to us quickly about where
we can see it and what it's all
about.
>> The film is called "Beyond
Form," Paolo Soleri.
It's going to be screened in
Scottsdale on the 20th,
Saturday.
I understand it's sold out.
We have a website which the
FaceBook site would be again,
Paolo Soleribeyondform, people
can go there to find out where
the next screening will be.
It's a four-year effort.
The director is just incredibly
talented and had this really
exceptional access to Paolo that
no one really has had before.
We had no footage.
I had been with Paolo 44 years
and we have no film of him, his
hand, the master, carving a
bell, carving concrete.
Snapshots, but no film.
>> Congratulations on the film
and the success there, and on an
interesting life with Paolo
Soleri.
Thank you all for joining us to
help illuminate his life and
achievements.
Thank you for joining us.
>> Thank you.
Thank you.
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today.
>>> Not everyone in Superior is
supporting a lnad swap needed
for the construction of a large
copper mine in the area.
Former Superior Mayor Roy Chavez
and Superior Councilmember Soyla
"Kiki" Peralta are with us
tonight.
Both recently expressed their
opposition to the deal in
testimony before Congress.
Good to have you here, thank you
for joining us.
>> We had Congresswoman Ann
Kirkpatrick on last time.
But first, why are you opposed
to this legislation?
>> For several years the mine
has attempted to introduce this
legislation in regards to the
land exchange.
Our concerns for the past
several years has been in
reference to the environmental
concerns, water usage,
socioeconomic conditions.
There's not even a mining plan
of operation.
>> I share with you that when I
was Mayor in 1998, the companies
came to Superior and we had
discussions about the project,
the new project.
At that time I was assuming that
they would reopen the mine with
the old method of mining.
I was not clear as to what the
exchange was involving.
They explained they would do a
blockade process.
With that, the exchange parcels
also, I thought at the time,
would include some Saint Francis
Hospital superior.
We are landlocked, four or five
square miles around Forest
Service land.
The environmental issues were
discussed but I discovered the
process should be in place prior
to the exchange.
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but
the bill can go on without full
environmental studies?
>> That is my understanding.
But according to the bill, they
have got up to I believe three
years to do them.
>> Yes.
>> And we want them to be done
prior because we want to know
what kind of negative impact
it's going take on our
environment, our town and our
water.
And on the general area itself.
>> We had Congresswoman
Kirkpatrick, as I mentioned, on
last week.
I want you to listen to what she
had to say regarding that this
is, as she sees it, a great
opportunity for Arizona and your
region.
>> We believe that the indirect
and direct jobs it'll create is
3,700.
The financial impact to the
state of Arizona is in the
billions of dollare.
It is one of the richest copper
ore bodies in North America,
maybe in the world.
We have a great opportunity, not
just for the district but for
all of Arizona.
>> Is that an opportunity that
Superior can afford to say no
to?
>> I share with you, Ted, those
are numbers provided by the
company.
I worked the Magma Mine from
1993 to 1996 when we closed.
The company closed with 1300
employees laid off in one day.
They reopened in 1989 with
approximately 400.
There were some changes made in
the underground operation and
that was obvious.
Also as mayor then, not only did
I realize the lack of workforce
that was employed at the
company, we saw a decrease in
our population.
More and more the workers that
were hired chose not to live in
superior.
The only taxable income we
received was employment taxes.
When the proposal was suggested
that they were going operate
this new mine, and it was going
to be based on robotics and
technology and research and
development for new operations,
I started to think, this could
mean even less employees in
regards to the actual production
process.
I also questioned the definition
of direct and indirect jobs.
>> Are you questioning these
things -- because even if the
numbers are off, we'll say they
are off any percentage point you
want, they are still jobs and
happening in Arizona and there
could still be impact to
Superior.
Valid?
>> Valid, yes.
There will be a few jobs for
Superior.
>> Worth it?
>> In my opinion?
>> Yes.
>> Not at the cost of -- not at
the cost of our environment.
>> Is the environment the major
sticking point for you?
>> The major sticking point is
the fact that they don't want to
do the studies prior to the land
swap.
We want to know what's going to
happen before.
We don't want projections or
what they think is going to
happen.
We'd like to see the studies
done prior so that we know.
>> Is that a similar concern for
you?
>> Very much so.
There's also other issues in
regard to the process that need
to be addressed.
Socioeconomic is a big point
here, let's not forget Rio Tito
is owned by 95% by China.
The commodity is open to the
free world market.
Whoever can buy it will take it.
I believe there are some serious
conditions with Native American
rights and freedom.
>> Here's what she said about
sacred tribal areas.
>> There are sacred tribal areas
for the Apache, and I understand
that, having grown up on tribal
land myself, that is part of
their spirituality and culture
and very respectful of that.
On the other hand, this is the
copper corridor.
I have to represent all my
constituents.
The folks in that area are
miners.
They have been for generations
and generations and they want
this to happen.
>> Let's talk about this, the
fact that miners and folks in
your town and area want this to
happen.
>> I believe that is true,
that's a true statement.
We are in the copper corridor.
However, this is a new mine.
A new operation.
I do not believe the general
public and in the community and
region actually realize the
impact that this operation is
taking on.
Without a mining plan of
operation, Ted, we've asked
simple questions.
How is the ore going to be
extracted.
Where is the ore going to be
processed, crushed, milled.
Right now there's an issue going
on in regards to the waste
disposal of the byproduct.
We have negotiated with the
State land department with
regards to the acquisition of
land at the basis of Dromedary
Pass.
12 square miles is three, four
times the size of our community.
We're talking about a tailings
site that is still undefined.
>> With all that in mind, we
will hear from the other side in
a couple of days here.
They say you are simply opposed
to mining there.
>> Not true.
We're not opposed to mining.
It's a mining community.
And basically, you know, my dad
was a miner, my husband was a
miner.
I worked for Magma Copper
Company.
I was the first female laborer
to be hired in 1975.
I'm not against mining.
I am against them circumventing
the law to get this land swap.
There's a process that needs to
be followed and they are not
doing it.
>> If the process is as it is,
but the mine can't be build
without those NEPA studies and
environmental studies, is it
still the same in the wash?
Still the same thing?
>> What do you mean?
>> If the fact is the mine won't
get built without the proper
studies, that is not an
environmental concern that has
been answered?
>> Yes.
>> You think it would be
answered?
>> Wel,l, if they do it prior.
>> Okay.
>> If they do it prior.
>> That's the catch-22 here,
Ted.
Under the NEPA process our
government officials are
supposed to take a look at those
documents and studies and make a
solid determine nation if the
public land is being used in the
best public interest.
Economic concerns in our region
lend themselves to this project.
But conveyance of the land and
privatizing this public land
prior to the NEPA studies, makes
it studies potentially mute.
>> One last point, again, from
Congresswoman Kirkpatrick's show
last week.
She did say she did talk to
residents here and they seem to
want it.
One more time, Congresswoman
Kirkpatrick.
>> They have been miners for
generations and they want the
jobs.
What I'm striving for, Ted, is a
diversified stable economy in
Arizona.
That means mining is a part of
that.
We have ranching, farming.
We have bio tech in oro Valley.
We've got some great
opportunities.
This is one of those.
It is a very diverse district, a
very diverse state.
But the folks in that area are
miners and these are the jobs
that they want.
We've got this opportunity with
this very, very rich copper ore
body.
>> Bottom line: Is it better to
superior to do nothing than to
go ahead and pursue this
operation?
>> I agree with Representative
Kirkpatrick.
We're in a very diversified form
of economies right now and we're
challenged with addressing those
issues.
Past possibly the issue in
Superior.
We need to diversify our
economy.
We need to look at other forms
of economic development within
the community and in the
surrounding region.
Going back to the mine is
possibly the reason why we're in
the condition we're in on that
one horse.
I would share with you that we
do need to look at diversified
commis this.
Particular project as it stands
today, Ted, leaves too many open
questions.
>> Last question for you, again:
Better to do nothing or pursue
this operation?
>> At this point, I think it
would be better to do nothing
until we can assure the safety
of our community, at this point
I think nothing is better.
>> I want to thank you both for
coming down and appearing on
"Horizon" tonight.
>> Thank you, Ted.
>> That is it for now.