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joining us is john ameche john is a psychologist new york times bestselling
author and former n_b_a_ basketball player all you had an interesting
commentary after the cobe bryant uh... anti-gay slur which we talked about on
my program quite a bit um... first i would like to get your reaction just to
the fine component of this find a hundred thousand dollars uh... period
that was the fine uh... i'd i'd first just like to get your thoughts on
whether you think that was appropriate given what took place
are due it's appropriate just because you set the eft world war two stickers
you sir
uh... homophobic so i think it's appropriate because of the message it
sends out so that's the least
you know
the perhaps one of the best it is not the best possible claire in the n_b_a_
can't get away with it nobody can get it right
and also when its relative to the amount of money let's just adore since that one
*** contact
if asians with significant side of the event in cuba
do you think it would have made it more sensor sent more of a signal to actually
have him sitting came out
but i think there are two schools of this one
and then yes it would make it creates a serious but there's no normal person who
doesn't make thirty million a year
uses of a hundred thousand dollars is not serious
and at the same time i think you run the risk of
especially given what's happening in the playoffs already
interfering with that process in such a way that it only prints more on missile
deal to be to community not less
well that's what i think public opinion should be the all that sort of
or punishment
uh... but at the same time i think
west thirty when you look at what's happened since
i would you like the p_s_a_ or not what you like what they've done since
and certainly yet college but i think he actually meant
the results
second or third time around
i do think distance of movement
well you mention the apologies you know i heard very calm and kind of uh...
story in in at least one of those apologies which was
the apology for people being offended as opposed to the apology
for what was said being completely inappropriate
it did did you make that distinction when you first cider
absolutely our programmers thought was the thing that really ability
blockbuster righto
uh... you don't says that the apt
the case of the response people take issue with athletes as role models
payoff
button then to hear the apology that was not an apology was the
it was the glenn beck
is the glen
becky in classical *** where high-stakes agree outrageous and then i
blame you for being overly sensitive and that's not how you apologize we
apologize the same i'm sorry i'm what was in error
outside apologize on
locally although it did take the couple tries he has now done
you got the other thing that came to my mind was as you mentioned whether or not
we think colby bryant should be a role model refer children
he is inevitably for many children and given what's been going on with boeing
two things came to mind when i heard this number one was from the point of
view of those who made all the
kids who they perceive to be gay or lesbian
does this not in some way reinforced
they've kobe bryant is saying these types of things it must be okay for me
too
and at the same time kids who maybe gay or lesbian when they see this who could
it not affect them as well
absolutely i think one of the things i did not address over the world is not
words but no i did not address in my new york times what that was the fact that
but only when
along walls when they say things that overall multilateral force through
yes it certainly has been tapped on the intended victim if you like what the
content of the victim
but it really also has the impact off one of the bulding bullies making them
think that
if someone of his fat you can do this
uh... then i should do it too assuming fireworks iraq in two thousand seven
when tim hardaway sensible rachael bridges and stop me
i definitely found us
as well as impacting a lot of young people alarm bells bt people
or people just different
it also impacted in that i got a lot more insults for a lot different courses
because i think people felt in bold buys works
well it's interesting you mention the after your book uh... man in the middle
was that was released and where you were you it came out of the closet
essentially saying you had been playing in the n_b_a_ you're gay
tim hardaway when asked very directly how would he react to a gay player he
said i wouldn't want that i don't like gay people uh... basically just saying
that i i i am homeland incredibly homophobic and very willing to discuss
it openly
uh... what after that happened did you
what was your sense of that aftermath of that but above and beyond you know that
the insult he received but do you think that that changed and all the n_b_a_ and
what goes on in locker rooms as it basically still the same to you soon
i think uh... it's a give credit to the n_b_a_ i do think that they acted very
quickly when that happens and i think
there were people tried to bat incident
though athletes it within the n_b_a_ behind other schools who thought it was
as a result of the l two bt community that gay people and kathy swerved a game
and then all of a sudden
things that uh... things moved interaction pretty quickly said was
removed from the all-star game used removed from all of the road and the
events
so i think people's athletes
and bigots subs realizable actual consequences and that no longer wasn't
that
because anything bad about black people you can say anything bad about jewish
people
but it's ok eight to talk uh... in terrible wasteful okay people of that
was a poster
uh... is your sense that this is just something very common in the n_b_a_ and
it's just every once in awhile it comes out with tim hardaway with colby brian
or is your sense that this is our eyes elated
website
suits this is pretty common everywhere
then derogatory words about gay people about the gay community are all
commonplace and they come from their peers for short
but in some cases they also come from the thirty
*** ests
and segment incorrect gila basis uh... that's only certain types of churches
and said this in terms of tools inside this book it does happen regularly
and so i think this is simply a reflection of what was going all the
time i i i only wish that school teaches who said
were similar to this got the same kind of attention is coping
uh... because to me
someone whose job is to influence and educate young people is doing
damage
uh... when they think we're leading to the schoolyard
or the classroom
i thought we did on calls
well incredibly here in the u_s_ just last week we were talking about a
proposed bill where
uh... teachers i forget which state it's in would actually i believe is tennessee
would actually not be able to say or refer
urge to homosexuality in any way
which as you can imagine opens up
incredible obvious questions about what what about characters or authors can you
not even referred to the their personal background images the desired direction
to really and go in and you're right the teachers are are a bbq should be a
bigger concern than coby
yeah they should be arrogant the reality is that that priest legislation at your
friends who is devastating
uh... i often tell activists begin otherwise human rights outfits in the
states that i think that america's actually regressive tax
it's going backwards
uh... and and uh... it really does tend to get back uh... little bit but the
fact is that this whole that you're talking about
is very similar to local returning would call section twenty eight
that forbade school teachers from talking about gay stuff homosexuality or
even using the word in school
it's gives an amazingly effective way of marginalizing an entire community
uh... without actually sitting like a horrible but we don't do anything to the
you just running the but when people become nameless
that humanity drops away a wind that manatee is stripped
it's much easier to do all things to them
we see in the basement minority groups throughout history
uh... so this is vertically pernicious type of legislation
uh... blogger alvin mcewan passed along a question for you and he said
uh... what is your reaction about gay being the new black in the sense of this
kind of intentional degree
of invisibility that some algae beatty's of color placed under in the black
community haven't been particularly in the u_s_ but really anywhere what how
would you react
i hesitated times of the talks about anything being the new black
uh... because i think
i think the comparison stands out all these
sos
uh... the bigoted minorities purpose it said it just tends to make
uh... different minority communities than the adults peter
i do think that
it's amazing to me but if you are in the closet is a white person
you are in the closet
and there's something benign and almost uh... considered almost healthy you know
it's completely not
about that but if you're in the closet as a black person that you up down low
analysts and you start getting blamed for
uh... a resurgence in h_i_v_ numbers a resurgence in in the break-up of the
black family
really there's this kind of there's a double bigotry that comes if you all
both a cousin of coed especially in america
and and belgian e_c_ it's remarkably difficult double bind
because you don't sit in the mainstream i know that when i come to america
when i walk out into blueberry geico some discussion you know
milan all but the problem in a cable like being up there
that social
you've got to pick up the issue to a certain type of what is the location to
find people who are like you
but i think we need to be more inclusive the meal speech museum weakened
we need to understand that
minority groups overtime when they feel under pressure as the black community
ella has been for
decades of america
as the o_m_b_'s eternity
continues today
you you tend to come to position where you actually start sacrificing your
internal that was the only alternative cohesion
if people see black people as one
uh... homogeneous thing
that was safer stuck together so everything that's out why anything
that's different lbc black people
or threat to back of the asian
and therefore threats
that perhaps the outside world managed to get the best of the i think we've got
to do better in terms of defining ourselves
another study in the black is
smart tapes
collaborates
dominates all kinds of stuff it's not just drives listed hip-hop with a jeans
awkward on the house
to real quick things in the last couple of minutes we have left number one is
uh... right now immediately is how prevalent is uh... gay n_b_a_ players i
mean did theirs
the assumption that one when you made big news of people ask the obvious
question well he's he is coming public with this but how many other people are
there and are there many other gay players that have to live with this
constant barrage of homophobia in the locker room is that prevalent
i would say yes and uh... it let me
i know that for my personal experience of players officials i know in the
n_b_a_ at in the n_f_l_ attend baseball
there are plenty of day it
meets out that gave officials out to us
many of whom are alps in terms of that he makes me no
uh... officials in their teens may know that it's not out to the general public
but there's a large number up that i think they've done without surprise
people ends
people of profiles and standards of play excellence
far superior to mind
that that wood stove
ten people's heads
but it's the the colorado is not could use of that so it's not coming out i
know it's the best thing for them so best of the mental health
but america still a country defied in thirty states are being gay so
sometimes the environment scotty crimes so you get the roles you deserve
and last thing you mentioned referees i followed the tim donahue situation very
closely i don't know if there was a year year and a half ago now
he made the claim on sixty minutes that the n_b_a_ influences referees to call
games
to extend playoff series in other words the more games the more profit there is
anne evidence of that anything you can shed light on a vote on that front
uh... i i i can honestly say i never experience that what what i played often
that as i got more prominence as i got to the years biplane orlando which were
pretty much my best years
i did feel as if i got more respect from referees
but i have to say i also changed the way that i directed referees
from my early years where i didn't want to let you know was that me
my question is where
we had conversations and
coincidently i got better call so
are at least i felt like that i don't think it's about extending
uh...
uh... series i think it's about people treating referees of perspective and
boats people tend to get that a culture
so tend on his claim that it's on a team by team let's see if we can get it says
that this series go seven games no evidence that you know of
to that extent
i have absolutely no casino alright
what johnnie t psychologist new york times best-selling author former n_b_a_
basketball player
really great to speak with you thank you so much for doing this
it's a pleasure thank you