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>>> Coming up next on "Arizona
Horizon," we hear from a
conservationist who thinks
Arizona representatives are
wrong to support a proposed
copper mine near superior.
>>> A new study shows that
Arizona ranks behind national
averages in per capita income.
>>> And on tonight's "Arizona
Artbeat," we look at the work of
a local printmaker.
>>> Those stories next, on
"Arizona Horizon."
>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
the friends of eight.
Members of your Arizona PBS
station.
Thank you.
>>> Good evening, and welcome to
"Arizona Horizon."
I'm Ted Simons.
>>> Arizona congressman Paul
Gosar was on our show last week
and he spoke in support of a
proposed land swap needed for a
planned copper mine near
superior.
Tonight we hear from a
conservationist who is against
the idea.
Roger Featherstone is with with
the Arizona mining reform
coalition.
OK, let's get the generalities
and first and then hear what
congressman Gosar and
congresswoman Kirkpatrick have
to say.
Why is this mine a bad thing for
Arizona?
>> It's just not good public
policy.
There's a process in place that
all the other large copper
mines, proposed copper mines in
the United States go through,
and that entails first writing a
mining plan of operations, then
going through the public review
process, then getting a
decision.
And in this case they're short
circuiting that and going
straight to Congress for relief
from the process, and that's not
good policy.
>> How are they short circuiting
this?
>> If they go --
The way the bill is written, and
this is the 12th bill that we've
been dealing with in this issue,
as the bill is written, there
will be no need, but before the
land exchange, and then after
the land exchange is done, all
the decisions are made, so any
analysis and alternatives would
be more or less meaningless.
>> NEPA is the national
environmental policy act and the
standards therein are what need
to be addressed before the mine
can go through.
When we spoke with congressman
Gosar about NEPA, he says that
the mine simply can't go through
without these NEPA studies.
Less hear what he had to say.
>> A lot of people would like to
see a preNEPA done before any
land exchange.
That's like you and me, if I'm
telling you property, you have
to go through planning and
zoning and the whole
environmental aspects before we
transfer.
Congress has that aspect.
Our bill precludes anything
going forward within that mine
without going through the proper
environmental protections.
It's already being done.
They can't go past go in order
to do that.
>> If the idea is regardless of
when the NEPA studies are done,
there is no mine without NEPA
studies, what's the problem?
>> There's a disconnect here
between what Mr. Gosar says and
what is written in his bill.
It's very puzzling to me how
there's such a big disconnect.
NEPA is a law that requires the
forest service, any federal
agency to study a proposal, make
alternatives, and get all the
information in before they make
an informed decision.
If you --
If there's no decision to be
made, there's no reason to do
the analysis.
The way it should happen would
be what happened in the Safford
mine, when that was permitted,
which involved also a land
exchange.
What happened was the mining
company wrote a mining plan of
operations that included the
land transfer and the mining
plan of operations, that was
study and reviewed by the forest
service and the public, it came
to a decision.
That's the way it should be
done.
Not by going straight to
Congress for relief.
>> But getting to the ends
justifying the means, if there
is no mine without NEPA study,
does it matter when the NEPA
studies are done?
>> Yes, it matters very much.
And it's an open question as to
whether --
If there's no federal nexus,
whether there would even be an
analysis done by NEPA.
The forest service themselves
when they testified in front of
the committee this march on this
version of the land exchange
said clearly that NEPA studies
should be done before a decision
is made, and if --
Unless that happens, it is
meaningless to do the NEPA if
there's no decisions to be made.
>> You mentioned the mining plan
of operation, critics are upset
because there is no formal plan
filed as of yet, but congressman
Gosar said critics are jumping
the gun because the plan of
operation should be ready by
year's end.
Let's see what he had to say.
>> That's not due yet.
That's coming up shortly in the
timetable of aspects.
Be patient, and look.
These are the numbers that are
coming forward.
In the mine plan of operation
they're going to come forward
with those, and they've pretty
much got everything resolved.
They're carryinger on half of
the 50-year water supply,
they've invested in reclamation
for reused water to use over and
over again.
The only thing that they're
working on and they've had a
very open process is where
they'll place the tailings.
They've been having great ideas
in regards to looking at ABC for
construction for our roads, but
open to the public to those
dialogues.
>> it sounds like half the
operation concerns are resolved,
and that water supply issues
and --
Except for tailings, but much of
the mining plan of operation has
been resolved and according to
the congressman, it's not even
due yet.
>> RiO tintO has started the
process in 2004.
They had plenty of time to write
the mining plan of operations.
Instead they gambled on going to
Congress, which would avoid the
mining plan of operations until
they got the land in private
ownership, which is something
they've --
They all along they've been very
reluctant to put out a plan
before they got their bill.
And now they've got to put up or
shut up, so now they're making
this move to get the public
involved, help them find a
tailing site.
They've had 10 years to do this.
This is one of the largest
mining companies in the world,
and if they could not have come
up with a complete plan in the
last 10 years instead of at the
last minute throwing something
together, then they have no
right to be mining at the site
to begin with.
>> Whether or not they're
throwing something together to
have a mining operation ready by
year's end, is that not good
enough?
>> No.
Because --
Well, it is good enough if the
land exchange bill itself is
halted, and that whole process
is halted until the review of
the mining plan is allowed to
happen.
A mining plan in itself can be
either good mining plan or
mine --
Bad mining plan, and it takes a
while to figure out exactly what
is going to be in that document
to know whether they've actually
covered all their bases.
>> There are also concerns
regarding American Indian sacred
areas in that particular region.
Do you see those as concerns as
well?
>> Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Hope flat is clearly a sacred
site to many tribes.
And the land exchange is opposed
by every tribe and pueblo in the
United States through the
national Congress of American
Indians and the inner tribal
council of Arizona.
So this is clearly a sacred
site.
And of course has a lot of other
values.
And the fact that this is being
pushed through with no
consultation written into the
bill until after it was passed
is again simply not the way that
the laws are written to protect
the rights of native people to
have religious freedom.
>> I asked congresswoman
Kirkpatrick and congressman
Gosar about that issue regarding
American Indian sacred areas and
tribal rights, and they both
commented on this and both seem
to say that if you talk to
tribal members, they want this
project.
If you talk to tribal leaders,
they don't.
Let's see what they both had to
say.
>> Having grown up on tribal
land myself, that is part of
their spirituality and their
culture, and very respectful of
that.
On the other hand, this is the
copper corridor.
I have to represent all my
constituents, and folks in that
area are miners.
They have been for generation
and generations.
And they want this to happen.
>> There are two studies and two
polls that show less less than
20% of the tribe actually
believe the way that chairman
rambler and the council have
gone.
They want the jobs, and they
want to have a shot at those
jobs.
>> It sounds like they're saying
that opponents are literally
disregarding the will of the
people.
How do you respond to that?
>> The will of the people is to
protect the land for recreation
and for its sacred character,
and for the economic diversity
of the town of superior.
That is the will of the people.
What I don't know what studies
congressman Gosar is referring,
to I've not seen any of those,
though I suspect they were
probably bought and paid for by
RiO tintO.
But clearly both tribal
government and tribal members
are opposed to the land exchange
and firmly believe that the
mine, the land exchange is
incompatible with the sacredness
of hope flat.
>> The last sound bite is from
congresswoman Kirkpatrick.
Years of talks which she sees as
an open process, there have been
numerous meeting and community
sessions, we had another one
here recently, on what she sees
as an honest attempt to get all
voices heard.
>> There's a balance to this.
And we've been talking with all
the stakeholders on this.
Trying to address their
concerns.
You and I talked earlier about
the rock climbers.
There's been an agreement
reached with the rock climbers
so that area where they like to
climb has been protected.
So there's movement.
There are ways to do this in a
balanced way and that's what
we're striving to do.
>> Is there from where you
stand, is there no way that this
mine should go through?
Let's say that all the Is are
dotted and the Ts are crossed
and the NEPA studies are done
and the mining plan of
operations is accurately filed.
Would you still be against the
mine?
>> If the mining plan was
written, if and it went through
the entire process, if the
company could pass muster as far
as not damaging the sacredness
of oak flat, and if the land
exchange was abandoned, then our
organization very well could
support this mine.
>> For those in superior and in
the area who say the town is
broke, we need the jobs, we need
the industry, we need to
diversify the economy with the
diversification that comes with
a massive --
This is a massive project,
there's no doubt about it.
You would say --
>> there's two sides to economic
development.
Certainly no one would think
that a large mine such as this
would not have environmental,
social, and governmental
problems.
Those haven't been taken into
account, and nor can they be
because we haven't seen a mining
plan of operation.
So in the town of superior, they
were doing a good job while the
mine was closed, when it closed
in 1996, to diversify their
economy.
And now that this project has
come in, that diversification
has been abandoned.
And that's not the right way to
do it.
And lastly, I would point out
that even under the company's
rosy scenario, no mine would
open for at least a decade or a
dozen years, and so there would
be no influx of jobs in the near
future anyhow.
So there's many other ways to
solve the economic problems of
superior rather than getting in
bed with an industry that is
decimated superior in the first
place.
>> Roger Featherstone, good to
have you here.
Thank you so much for joining
us.
>> Thank you.
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>>> A new report from ASU's
Morrison Institute shows that
Arizona lags behind the nation
in per capita income in terms of
money earned at the workplace,
as well as for instance
dividends, interest, and rental
property.
ASU economist Tom Rex is the
author of the report.
Good to see you again.
Thanks for joining us.
I want to get to this property
income thing, but as far as per
capita earnings just in general,
we're not doing too well, are
we?
>> No.
No.
Arizona is 16% below the
national average on per capita
income now.
>> And why is that do you think?
>> It's because of a host of
reasons.
There's a lot of components to
per capita income, and Arizonans
below average frequently not by
very much, but below average on
almost every one of them.
So instead of being able to
point 84 finger and say it's
this one item that does it, it's
in fact a full range of factors.
>> As far as general per capita
income, we're going to get new
numbers coming up soon.
Correct?
>> Right.
>> OK.
But property income we've got
the numbers now.
Correct?
>> We've got 2011 numbers in
property, and the others.
There's preliminary numbers only
for the overall figure, and it
shows 2012 wasn't really any
different than 2011.
So we haven't made any progress
in the last year.
>> We may ask you back when we
get these updated numbers,
especially in general terms of
per capita income.
Right now the best we can do is
property income and the research
there, there are different
levels or different categories
of property income.
What are they?
>> Property income, basically
refers to individual savings
whether they do it through bank
account, whether they do it by
buying stock, whether they buy
real estate.
All of those would fit into
property income.
And we're below average on
property income by about the
same amount as the overall.
Which isn't a real surprise.
If your populous is not making
that much money, they're making
less income than their
counterparts around the country,
they're going to have less money
to invest in any of these other
ventures.
So that I think is the primary
reason why property income is so
low, is because our earnings are
so low.
>> I would think, and from your
report it seemed to suggest
urban areas you would see better
at least property income results
than you would in maybe rural
areas.
And yet it sounds like Maricopa
County is still below the
average for urban areas.
>> It is.
Yes.
It is.
It's better than almost --
It's better than all the rest of
the state, Maricopa County is
the best in all the different
measures of income.
But it is still below in
particular other large urban
areas.
There is a relationship with
urban size, and measures like
this.
And so yes, it's not a problem
that you can say it's strictly a
rural problem in Arizona,
because it's an urban problem as
well.
>> Do we see differences between
Maricopa County, Pima county,
Yavapai --
Sounded like Yavapai county was
doing well.
What are we seeing there?
>> Yavapai does well in that
particular measure because they
have a fair number of rather
affluent retirees.
Maricopa County used to do
better because it used to,
relative to the size of the
economy, have more relatively
affluent retirees.
We still have them, they're
still moving N. but they're a
drop in the bucket now compared
to all the rest of the economy.
>> And talk more about that.
It seemed as though it would be
difficult, the whole thing would
be difficult for me to research,
but as far as research is
concerned, with so many people
coming in part-time residents,
folks who might be having a lot
of net wealth to them, staying
here for a certain amount of
time, how do you balance those
metrics?
How do you figure out what's
really going on?
>> Well, the part-timers don't
get counted in Arizona.
They get counted wherever they
spend most of their time where
they declare their permanent
residence to be.
So they're not in the numbers
any way, shape, or form.
But the retirees that move here,
people that retire and move to
Arizona for retirement, they're
a boost to the economy, most of
them are fairly affluent, and
that's why you get an example
like you mentioned like in
Prescott, where you've got
fairly good numbers on that
because they made their money
elsewhere, so their earnings may
well have been pretty good
wherever they were living.
They weren't subject to the
lower conditions and Arizona.
And then they bring that money
with them when they retire.
>> So talk about the economic
impact of those sorts of folks,
and again, how you can balance
that.
It seems like a moving target.
You never know who's going to
move here, the past few years it
seems no one has been moving
here.
>> Well, yeah.
The short-term cyclical
conditions take precedent over
everything else essentially.
Even the more affluent people
that were thinking of retiring,
many of them saw such a huge
drop during the recession in
their savings through their
investments and all, that
they've had to back off and not
think about retiring, not think
about moving as soon as they
might have expected.
But we do know there's a large,
large number of baby boomers who
are just now, the fleeting edge
of them are just hitting
retirement age.
And they will be in the coming
years, Arizona will experience
quite a bit of increase in the
number of retirees moving here.
>> From what we've seen in
previous years, how do we rank
in terms of western states per
capita income in general,
property income in particular?
>> We're below average.
We're better than a couple
states like New Mexico, but
we're below the average.
>> And why is that?
>> Well, there's a lot of
reasons.
We have first off relatively
high proportions of retirees and
children.
They're not part of the work
force, they're not earning
income.
So that's part of it there.
Even though when you look at the
over--
The working age population, we
have a lower percentage, part of
the labor force in Arizona.
So you put that together, we
have fewer percentage of the
people earning money.
Then for those that are earning
money, the average wage is below
average here.
Partially because their job
mixes toward lower wage jobs.
Even if you're not working for a
company, you're on your own.
Proprietors' incomes are really
low in Arizona.
So you get the idea.
It's just, pick up --
Anything you look at, we're
below average.
And so when you accumulate all
of those individual items, none
of which on their own are that
terribly significant, but you
put them all together and
there's nothing offsetting on
the low end.
>> All right.
Well, Tom, not the most
encouraging of news, but it's an
interesting report nonetheless.
Good to have you here.
>> Thank you.
>>> Tonight's edition of
"Arizona Artbeat" features an
artist who starts with a carving
and end was a print.
Local artist Donna Atwood
creates prints made from wood or
linoleum.
Reporter Lorri Allen,
photographer Scot Olson and
Steve Snow take a look at the
printmaker and her exhibit which
is called "Little Miss Tex-Mex
Rides Again."
>> You can't use a bow and arrow
to get somebody to love you.
You have to use good cooking!
>> Donna Atwood is talking about
the title piece in her exhibit,
"Little Miss Tex-Mex Rides
Again."
>> I thought, I want to ride a
bird.
>> She says her art is influence
bide her environment.
>> Whatever I see around me
becomes part of my visual
language.
And we have --
Of course we have the Flora and
fauna of the region, and we also
have strong Mexican influence,
which I love dearly.
I think we get a lot of bad
press in Arizona for our
relationships with Mexico.
I think the underlying part of
that relationship is a very good
one.
Culturally and artistically, and
cuisinewise.
>> Here at SANTO press, she
collaborate with her former
prefer Brent Vaughn.
>> My job is easy.
All the work was done when you
handed it to me.
>> Now in the jargon of
printmaking, he is her
publisher.
>> She has a very good sense of
black and white.
Negative and positive.
And while the medium can easily
be used in multiple run,
multiple colors, sometimes I
find the most challenging is to
work in that one color and try
to convey all those values all
those different materials and
all those different lights, and
light quality and
characteristics of an external
or internal space, whether it's
a physical space, landscape, or
surreal space.
There's still spacial elements
in her work that are very
successful.
>> Atwood's work can be
humorous.
>> I miss being young and thin,
but I'll still take the
attention.
[laughter]
>> It's definitely whimsical.
Her love birds print is inspired
by this video she took on a
walk.
And some pieces are commentary
on social trend such as EL GUYO.
>> A girlfriend of mine had
decided a couple years ago it
was that she was going to start
dating again.
And I thought, oh, my lord.
Heaven help us all.
She would find these guys and it
would seem like it was going
well, and she'd go through that
process that I have like oh, he
brought me flowers, oh,
chocolate, oh, we're going out
for drinks or a concert, or she
even went to Italy with one
fellow.
And then sometimes she really
thinks she's in love and it's
going to --
This is going to be the one!
And you just think UGH.
>> At the library exhibit,
people are surprised and
delighted to meet the artist.
>> I really love black and
white.
>> The coordinator of the
gallery's exhibit says atwood's
collection was chosen for its
visual appeal and artistic
merit.
>> We felt particular --
We don't particularly look for
any sort of theme, but to be
honest I think her southwestern
theme Fitz nice in this Arizona
library.
And I also think that's one of
the reasons why it's being so
well received here.
>> Atwood says she's grateful to
be showcased at the library, but
a solo show can be daunting.
>> Not only do you have to work
the whole time with no income,
you also have to bear the brunt
of all of the expenses.
And all the while you must
believe enough in yourself that
you think this is going to be OK
this, is going to work out,
you're going to sell work,
people will like it.
You won't publicly humiliate
yourself.
And I think the only way to do
that is to have people around
you that go, yeah, this is good!
Go with this, do this!
>> An artist reception at
"Little Miss Tex-Mex Rides
Again" exhibit will be held from
to 8:00 p.m. Friday,
September 6th at the Burton
Barr central library in Phoenix.
The exhibit runs through October
16th.
>>> That is it for now.
I'm Ted Simons.
Thank you so much for joining
us.
You have a great evening.
Captioning Performed By
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www.LNScaptioning.com
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