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Outrageous, to meddle with a world wonder
German hobby researches damage the pyramid.
Guy from Chemnitz steals crumb from the Great Pyramid.
Researcher chisels the tomb of a Pharao.
House ban in Giza.
Egypt is disgusted and plans to engage Interpol.
My favourite is:" Egypt hunts down adventurer from Saxonia."
I welcome you with these headlines to a new interview. This time we have Dr.Dominique Goerlitz as a guest.
Well who is this adventurer that Interpol almost hunted across Europe?
I never met this "adventurer" and "criminal" since I lead the Abora Project for over 20 years which is dedicated to research relics, also those of Egypt.
We are more than a scientific open sea adventure that wants to show that globilization and internationalism are inventions of ancient times.
Cultures were always international, they always interchanged.
Thus the unresolved question if the pyramid structures all over the world are somehow culturally connected is important.
Even though it hasn't been researched enough yet. This question of course lead me to Egypt.
Especially since I've worked for years with Thor-Heyerdahl, Prof. Valerio Massimo Manfredi from the university of Bolognia on reseaching pyramids in Italy.
And this way I came, just like the *** to a child, again to Egypt in connection with Stefan Erdmann.
Well, we've worked together before - like "Unresolved Mysteries of the History of Discoverers." we did some years ago.
Now, you've mentioned that Stefan Erdmann draw your attention to a discovery that is connected with the Great Pyramid.
Can you explain shortly what these discoveries are and how it came that you've worked together?
I've met Erdmann for the first time at my exhibition in Dresden in 2012.
He told me about his discoveries of one of his last big expeditions in 2006/07.
He discovered dark discolorations in the King's chamber of the Great Pyramid.
He went to Egyptologists in Cairo and experts of the DAE with that and got more or less rejected. This is not of relevance etc...
Nobody cares about that etc...
I am an experimental researcher and researcher of nature and deal with the technical achievements of early civilizations since I remember.
Since he found 18 discolorations on 9 granite beams, all opposed to each other and with regular discolorations, he got my attention.
This might be a technical clue to the structure, maybe even before the construction of the pyramid.
And thus the idea was born to shine some light on this with the authorizations Erdmann had for over 10 years as a private researcher in Egypt.
Right, and that was the reason for a new film project for us. Especially for me as a film producer who picked up the topic of the pyramids before.
I am very fascinated by the Giza Plateau. So we wanted to make a movie and find out what these discolorations are about.
This building waits to be deciphered for over 5000 years.
All these accusations launched by the media against me...
We haven't joined a crime at midnight. Stefan Erdmann assured me and the Fresenius institute that everything he did was based on permissions.
Permissions he received for years from the Supreme Council of Antiquites.
Thus there was no reason for us to believe that our research and movie project would somehow end up in illegal actions.
There was no reason to think of that at that time.
But firsts things first. So you've traveled to Egypt to examine those discolorations in the King's Chamber. "Right."
Surely with the goal to receive usable data.
What was your plan?
Maybe we can go back to the year 2012 when we've met for the first time for better understanding.
I must say that I never thought it would be possible to do private research like this before December 2012.
I never thought it would be possible to buy official permissions. No matter what you do with it.
And I never thought that it would be possible to do official research there with private institutes.
That's what I want to make clear. These things have been done and released to the public in German and English.
They have been discussed in Egpyt as well. So the accusations, that also go against Mr.Erdmann, to illegally meddle with the relics is totally inappropriate.
They could have done that years ago!
That was one of the reasons to finally join the trip in April 2013 because I recognized that there are no legal problems with such kind of research there.
Neither me in private,as a researcher or head of the Abora Project would have joined this "adventure" if I would have believed that we are doing something negative over there.
Why you should assume that anyway. You can only enter the pyramids with an official permission.
Why should you assume the opposite? Theoretically you shouldn't have to exculpate yourself for that.
"Yeah. Right" If you don't have a permission you won't expect that it is possible.
You had an official permission.
Like I said. In the tradition of former research projects Mr.Erdmann requested a permission, via his tour operator, chosen by the state of Egypt, not just any tour guide can do that.
Those are specially trained tour operators, like they are called there.
He requested a permission for us. We also requested ladders to make the examination possible.
These are the facts for the preparations that have been made.
Then we traveled there in April 2013. We got to the pyramid with our tour operator, just like it was arranged.
At the main door of the Great Pyramid the tour operator hands over the responsibility to the inspectors who are also specially trained.
Also tourist's police who are there to supervise those kind of visits.
The ladders we requested were placed with the help of the inspectors and tourist policemen.
These were two ladders, 6 meters high, to get to the discolorations.
They were examined with the goal to gather empirical basic data for science.
Data that maybe lead, in a second step, to new insights and questions.
That was our approach.
That was the approach. But that didn't started the scandal in the end.
After you've taken the samples, which was much easier and faster than you've thought you guys came up with another idea.
Yeah, the idea was born spontanously. The permission we had didn't exclude anything or highlight anything special.
Neither our names, passport data, which places we are allowed to visit or not, what kind of visit it is, what locations are closed etc...
We've discussed with our tour operator since we had over 90 minutes left.
We could either go since we've got all we needed or head towards the relief chambers to see if we can get some color samples in there.
This wasn't defined in the permission request. It was simply caused by the fact that we've gathered the samples of the King's Chamber after 15 minutes.
We didn't expect that but the inspector told us that we still have much time left and since we had a permission we can go where we want, even into the Queen's Chamber.
But no, we wanted to go into the relief chambers and see if we can get samples there.
Once more they've helped us to set up the ladders. I must say that you can't get up 9 meters in the Grand Gallery without assistence and support of the inspectors.
They helped us because they knew we were no criminals but private researchers who want to do some fundamental research.
This way we were allowed to climb up.
If the inspector would have said to us that we are not allowed to do this since we had to fill up anoter request for that, we would have said:"Thank you, we are going now."
Maybe we can explain that a bit. You must know the history of discovery of the relief chambers.
Maybe we can sum that up in a few sentences.
The so-called relief chambers are massive, static constructions above the so-called tomb chamber.
In a height of about 60 meters and they go up for like 20 meters.
These chamber were discovered relatively late by two Englishmen. The ones on top by Howard Vyse in 1837.
He not just discovered the chambers but also red graffiti in the 2nd to the 5th chambers.
According to modern Egyptology, and this is reasonable, might come from workers that build the pyramid about 4600 years ago.
Many Egyptologists especially Maspero, founder of the Egyptian Museum, and Flinders Petrie one of the most famous Egyptoligists of the 19th and 20th century, were very sceptic about that.
I'll hold back my opinion but since decades there is a discussion about the authenticity of these graffiti.
Thus the idea was born to maybe gather tiny amounts of particles from the colour of the graffiti to bring this discussion to an end.
Maybe even for the Egyptologists to clarify if these graffiti are authentic and end this hokus pokus, esoteric theories on the assumed age of the pyramids.
That Atlantians build the pyramids 20.000 years ago etc...
You'll have to add thatHoward Vyse made his way into the relief chambers, above the King's Chamber, with explosives in 1837.
At least to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th chamber. The first one was discovered earlier.
Parallel to his discovery of the relief chambers he also found red graffiti of "Hieroglyphs" in the chambers he opened.
In the lowest chamber you can't find any red paint on the walls.
That's true as far as I know. I must say that these "Vyse Paintings" are very clumsy. Hieroglyphs are upside down etc..
Also the so called "Cartouche of Khufu" has an inscription. That makes a very unprofessional impression.
That lead very early about discussions on the authenticity of these graffiti and it remains unsolved until today.
Well there are only two possibilties. Either the graffiti existed before Howard Vyse made his way up there or shortly after that.
Since over 150 years these two opposite propositions are discussed.
"The accusations came up that early?" The accusations came up immediately after the discovery.
Particularly since Vyse "found" red graffiti in Saqqara. Like just along the way. An inscription of Djoser by the way.
These are speculations and anti-speculations. I am a natural scientist. I just believe what I can weigh, measure and analyze.
This way the idea came up. Why not take a tiny sample from an unimportant graffiti in a corner that might come from Vyse himself?
You must imagine that for over 150 years people came there without any resistance and perpetuate themselves with their own graffiti.
It's not even clear if the graffiti we have taken samples from is antique. It can be from modern age as well.
I didn't want to take hands on authentic Hieroglyphs and by far not on the cartouche of Khufu.
We just wanted to set an impulse that maybe lead to another examination.
Well in other words you still had 90 minutes left and thought let's take another sample in the scale of micrograms from an unimportant graffiti.
We observed closely where we might take samples from. You can see immediately these red lines that might have been levelling lines from the architects. Those might be consistent.
Other things are upside-down. Others are just in half covered situations and you begin to think if this was this really planned?
To make it short we've found a spot with red paint that might be usuable for us and took tiniest samples for physical analysis.
Right. This was the goal , to analyse these samples and make the results puplic.
Of course. I mean that's the meaning of the German word "Wissenschaft"(Science). To create knowledge.(Wissen/knowledge;schaffen/create)
It's not about to use these insights home alone somewhere. It's about to make it available for the science community in form of reports.
We informed during our preparations that we want to do this analysis on the internet.
We documented it on the internet completely. We organized an event in the pyramid museum in Lennestadt.
I didn't talked there about the results on purpose, that was in September 2013, since we were not done yet and didn't want any speculations coming up...
...until we had the final results and got in contact with Egyptologists to discuss these results on a wide front like it should be.
Without any ideology and taboos.
Right. To support this publication our film "The Cheops Project" was planned.
We showed a trailer at the congress in October 2013. After we had first results of the analysis we announced that but then things started to happen very fast.
The trailer was online for a couple of days. What happened next?
The press spokesman of the Egyptian Heritage Task Force, Osama Karar, found the videos on the internet, copied them and showed it to the former minister of antiquities, Zahi Hawass.
Hawass immediately started a campaign against us. First in Egyptian press and then internationally.
He especially attacked the minister of antiquities at that time with releases in the Al-Acham newspaper with our affair.
That he is not able to secure the pyramids. That the minister and the new regime failed and that our affair is the best proof for his incompetence.
Dear (ex)minister, I have to say that we never wanted any of this.
We've got in contact, with the help of the magazine 'Mysteries', with the Supreme Council of Antiquities(SCA).
Which gave us our permission in the first place by the way. It's not like we are making this up.
We immediatelly declared under oath to the minister what we exactly did and apologized for any wrong doings.
Once to the minister and also to MENA, the biggest news agency in the Arabic region.
To apologize to the Egyptian people and explain that it never was our intention to damage or discredit their relics.
It was not our goal to debunk the pyramids.
Hawass told the world that rich Jews engaged Robert Bauval to bribe us with money so we steal the cartouche of Khufu so they can claim that King Solomon and the Jews build the pyramids 1000 years later.
Robert Bauval is a famous researcher of the pyramids. What made Hawass to connect you with Robert Bauval?
This is a story on its own. We, Stefan Erdmann and me, didn't knew Robert Bauval personally before.
Robert Bauval fights Zahi Hawass since over 20 years. Since Hawass became a well known egyptologist in Giza and later minister of antiquities.
These two are in struggle with each other for years. Robert claims that Hawass took bribes for many years.
He allowed the Schor Foundation and the Cayce Foundation, two dubious Jewish research teams, access to the pyramids and look for the so-called "Hall of records."
They have made drillings at the Sphinx and probably also at the Great Pyramid. The list of accusations to each other of these two men are long.
I want to make it short. The fact is we didn't know Bauval and never had contact with rich Jews.
He put us together in a boat to show the he is the right person in charge of the pyramids.
He is not only revealing himself as an antisemite but also as totally corrupt.
We will see that this is maybe the last nail he hammered in his own sarcophagus.
Curses, like chickens, come home to roost. I think this affair helps a lot to crush the credibility of Hawass.
He not only lied to the puplic but also juristic instances.
Anyway the whole thing found it's way to the press and there was a hysteric outcry. From New Zealand to London, from London to America etc...
Evil Germans act like grave robbers and desecrate the tomb of Khufu.
It was bearable for us since we've got a mediator from the SCA to clarify everything with the minister of antiquities.
We showed our samples and results to the SCA and guaranteed full cooperation.
At the request of the SCA we pulled off our film trailer from the internet. Not because we were afraid to face any legal actions.
We've covered everything from the beginning on the internet. That was no evidence for a midnight crime.
We just did official research and it seemed everything will turn out well in the end.
In the beginning of December 2013 I also had direct contact with the SCA and not just via the mediator.
They said that if we were apologizing in puplic the minister can live with it and we won't be pursued by law.
There are news reports about that from December 2013. But then something happened behind our backs what we didn't understand for two months.
Independent from our own negotiations with the SCA they've started their own inspection. I don't want to blame them for that.
It was their right to see what the "Evil Germans" really did.
So they've made their first inspection with four egyptologists heading to the Great Pyramid in the end of November 2013.
This crew of inspectors couldn't detect any damage.
Why? Simple, because we only took tiniest samples. Microgramms, from a 700 million tons building.
Nobody can't detect that - It's even hard to see under the microscope.
That didn't made the SCA stop though. Especially Abdul Mohammed Faruk, the former right hand of Hawass, insisted extremely to keep up the pressure against us.
At least our mediator of the SCA told us so inofficially.
Since they knew that we've done minimum damage somewhere, the video showed us taking the samples, they've sent another 5 headed inspection crew to the Great Pyramid on 13th December 2013.
They went up to the 5th relief chamber and for some reason they've found the traces that the other inspectors haven't found.
In particular 5 visible marks on the cartouche of Khufu.
That was the straw to break the camel's back in the mid of December.
It was clear for them that we lied. They didn't told the truth. Hawass was right.
The Germans meddle with the cartouche of Khufu.
We didn't understand that. That was around December 2013/January 2014.
We already showed the minister our pictures. He has seen our video footage since it was online. We took photos of the samples.
They didn't gave up and accused us for damaging the cartouche of Khufu over and over again.
Just in January 2014 I was told by Head of the Egyptian Heritage Task Force, Osama Karar, that they have found this chisel marks on the 13th December 2013 and thats why the minister decided to sue us by law.
To make us responsible for this crime.
As you can see it's obvious that the cartouche was damaged on five spots with a chisel.
But it wasn't you...
I stand in front of it but there are so many subsidiary red graffiti that would lead me to the same result that I really didn't had to touch this important relic.
This leads us to the question who did it? And when?
You said you stand in front of it. Have you noticed these marks?
No, there wasn't enough light in the chamber. We didn't had the time to examine the cartouche closely since we were busy to find an unimportant graffiti where we could take samples from.
The point is, how did the inspectors of the the second crew knew that there the cartouche of Khufu was damaged while the other crew didn't find anything?
We have a news article from the 10th December where Mohamed Ibrahim, the minister, said that Hawass shouldn't go too far since they knew that the cartouche was probably damaged since 2006.
We have that article from a newspaper in Cairo. That was a first clue for Robert Bauval and me.
Robert Bauval contacted me after this blow out. Me and Mr.Erdmann had to swear by oath, just like we did to the minister, that we didn't had any bad intentions.
After we did that he assured to help us find evidence that support us.
Because of the agitation against you and Robert Bauval he got in touch with you which lead to a wide clarification. How did that happened?
Hawass officially accussed Bauval to be part of this conspiricy to re-date this pyramid.
After we could prove that we didn't touch the cartouche and never had the intention Bauval opened his connections to Egyptologists for to get evidence that we were not responsible for the damage on the cartouche.
The evidence that especially Dr.Monica Henna, an egyptologist from Cairo, brought up to light are undeniable.
Five marks on the cartouche of Khufu. The questions is:" Who did it?" Since we know we didn't.
Robert Bauval sent you a picture of Robert Schoch from 2006 that already shows the damage on the cartouche.
"Right." With this evidence you should be off the hook.
We thought so since we've sent it to the minister and posted it on facebook.
It didn't took longer than 24 hours before the usage of that photo was denied for us since the photo wasn't taken by Schoch himself.
"Who made it?" It was made by his former girlfriend, an Egyptologist, Dr.Colette M. Dowell.
She denied the usage of her picture for us by an official decree since she supported the egyptologists and didn't want us to use it for our advantage.
What happened next?
Well it took us another call to Boston and fortunately the professor of the university examined the archives more closely this time and sent us a photo from Dec.2006 that we could use.
For the first time we could say that there is something wrong here to the SCA. The cartouche was already damaged in 2006.
At least I thought so. When I opened the photo on my computer the next morning I almost fainted since there was no damage on the cartouche.
Mr. Schoch had sent us the wrong picture via email. It wasn't a picture from 2006 and it showed no damage on the cartouche.
We have Robert Bauval here via Skype. Maybe he can explain the evidence on these pictures.
Well as we can see this scandal also had a positive effect at least. You and Stefan Erdmann are working closely with Robert Bauval now.
Concerning to the clarification on the pyramids this collaboration can only be positive.
Hopefully we will see that in the near future. When, let's say, more stuff will be revealed.
Our movie, will have it's share on this topic.
Maybe it will be released this year, maybe next year. We can't say for sure since it depends also on the lawsuit which should be held in June but was rescheduled to September.
You'll have to mention that not only you are accused in this trial but also the inspectors that helped you in Egypt.
They are six people that are held in prison... since November was it?
Since January, when the story of the damaged cartouche came up in Egypt.
This is reprehensible since the photographic evidence we and Robert provided lead the minister to install a third commission of inquiry.
Made of 5 experienced egyptologist. The thing is they were not allowed to enter the relief chambers. They were held back with specious reason.
In the end Ibrahim broke up this commission three weeks before the trial even though we have documents that show that the lawyers of minister Ibrahim strongly recommended to check these pictures before the trial.
What's the status quo?
I can't say. Why does a minister took back his own order? Why he doesn't support his employees?
He is also the boss of the two egyptologists that worked as inspectors while we were in the pyramid.
Why there is no interest in finding the truth? And who benefits from that?
Who benefits from keeping up these lies?
Not science! Neither the six people in jail!
Also the way how the trial was rescheduled was strange from a European point of view.
One lawyer of the defendant was late. Okay, you could say that defendant number six has a right to be represented juridically but what about the other five?
I mean at least the minister must have noticed that something is wrong when he saw the photographic evidence.
He had footage and pictures from us. He knows what we did. We made everything public. He knows what it's about in Egypt.
In Egypt it's not about the few milligrams of red paint and black patina we took. It's just about the cartouche of Khufu!
And for months six innocent people are held prison because of that.
Yeah, and the trial probably won't be over in September as it seems.
How can you explain that? You said science won't benefit from that - but who does?
The people that are responsible that this building hasn't been examined like it should be for over 20 years.
Why do we still don't know what's behind the chambers 20 years after Rudolf Gantenbrink.
Why is there no interest if a private researcher like Stefan Erdman finds 18 exactly defined discolorations on the ceiling of the King's Chamber and analyzes it at his own costs?
I mean you have to imagine these might be evidence for some kind of construction work.
Or maybe evidence for stuff the English or French did in the past. I mean who knows for sure?
As a serious scientist you must have an interest to examine those things.
To reverse this scenario and accuse us of being criminals because we examined these things at our own risk and with our own money really hurts me emotionally.
The outrage is not just about your actions. You were labeled as esoteric hobby archaeologists that have no idea what they are doing by all the big newspapers in Germany like 'Der Spiegel;Die Welt,Focus, etc..'
With total ignorence of the facts. I mean everbody reported about you but did anyone asked about your intentions and the results of your research?
Well, yeah we were asked about the results of the material analysis.
We accepted this hocus pocus for 7 months in consultation with the SCA. That's why we kept silence about the results.
...So we can clarify the results, once the juristic facts are resolved, together with the Egyptian egyptologists - not with the German egyptologists.
But what happens in the media is a smear campaign.
Since it's not about the fact of examination anymore.
It's not about the fact that we had a permission. It's not about the fact that that we had inspectors who supervized us.
It's about that we are accused of illegaly taking samples in an egoistic manner and thus harmed science and even humanity.
The Egyptian pyramids are not an UNESCO world heritage without a reason.
This is absurd! Anyone who is interested in us, the Abora Project and the research I have done in the past 20 years knows this.
As a student of Thor Heyerdahl I would never do these kind of things if it wasn't for science! For the research of these relics.
The world must know what has been discovered! The world has a right to know what the ancient cultures made so innovative.
But on the other hand what made them so weak and fragile. The ancient Egyptian civilization didn't had much too add after the construction of the Great Pyramid.
Can we assume that there were some kind of analysis of the samples from the cartouche between 2004-2006?
I mean someone already had the idea and took samples but contrary to you didn't make that research puplic.
We can assume that whoever it was knows about the brisance of this data.
Yeah, we can assume that. I mean you should ask how Hawass knew that we analyzed samples from the cartouche since our footage shows that I was 2 meters away from it.
How did he want to know that we touched the cartouche? He wasn't even in office as a minister for two years. We never claimed to put hands on the cartouche.
Why did the first team of inspectors found nothing but the second team knew precisely what they were looking for?
They knew where they have to look at. Logically Monica Henna, I don't want to blame her, found these five marks on the cartouche.
Why? And why a minister has no interest to attack his worst detractor, Hawass, with the evidence that showed that the cartouche was already damaged between 2004 and 2006?
Also to relief himself from the accusation that he denied his duty of care.
These chisel marks were done while Zahi Hawass was minister of antiquities and highest inspector.
The 'Mysteries magazine' is a nice anecdote on the side here.
The executive editor of the magazine was inside of the Great Pyramid, as a tourist and travelguide, on the date the scandal came up.
He was one of the first who experienced the regression when they said:'Germans, Pyramids;Oh, no get out of here!'
Unfortunately you have to admit that you contribute to the fact that it's not that easy anymore to do research.
On the other hand it reveals much about if there is any interest left in Egypt to find out more about this building or rather keep it as tomb of Khufu.
Nothing more, end of discussion!
Well the history of science shows that these kinds of attempts are all doomed to fail.
When let's say higher,political powers try to hide the truth. It's just a question of time.
The exaggerated security behavior at the moment is understandable.
You can't judge well morally what we possibly have done.
You can always look at it from different perspectives. We say this, the establisment, the old egyptologists say you can't do this.
Stefan Erdmann had to sent me eight permissions so I could check if it's legal.
Why did the SCA, and especially Hawass who speaks out in America and Europe:"He would never allow permissions to non Egyptologists!"
But he gave Rudolf Gantenbrink a permission in his time! He has met Stefan Erdmann in 1999 and gave him permission to enter the shaft of Osiris personally!
No non-engyptologists can get there! Hawass introduced Erdmann to many other people, also his tour operator who was a friend of Hawass.
Nobody from the SCA can say that they never saw Erdmann or never met him.
According this excessive security behavior, why didn't they told Mr.Erdmann in the last 15 years of his private research in a nice way that even if he wants to do something good it's against the rules.
You would have expected that! I can't give you the keys for my car, you drive away, call the police afterwards and thell them that you've stole my car.
"Yeah." Nothing else happens here.
We've mentioned that the analysis of the samples keep a certain brisance.
Will the results change history as we know it and when will they be released?
Well, we have results, even though some act like we didn't. We have findings that were unexpected.
As I've mentioned these findings are not the ultimate evidence for a totally wrong picture of history.
But it maybe gives us evidence in the direction that the technical abbilties of the early Bronze Age Egyptian civilization was much higher than we could proof yet.
I don't want to flip history upside down, to re-date the pyramid or not, the fact is:"Why is it so hard to question knowledge that is believed to be true?"
There must no taboos in science. It must be allowed to ask questions in any direction in science.
Stefan Erdmann did nothing else in the past 20 years.
If you like the idea, that he thinks the pyramid was not a tomb but a technical building, or not belongs to the field of morale.
But not in the field of science. It must be allowed to think creative. Only by that we can expand the limits of our way of thinking.
That's the only reason for our analysis.
Right. Creative thinking is what NuoViso Filmproductions is about too. That's why there will be probably two movies about this.
One about the analysis and results of the samples from the King's Chamber, we almost didn't talk about that, and of course the results from the relief chambers.
Like you said those contain some hot findings. They will serve science well for sure.
"The results were not null. I think you can reveal that so far." Yes, you can.
We will meet again in the next weeks for further shootings.
And to our audience: Thank you for your patience!