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[♪♪♪]
>> NOWADAYS...
>> Paula: TONIGHT ON THE
VERDICT, DITCHES ARE FOR
SNITCHES.
THE URBAN MESSAGE THAT'S RAPPED
INNER CITIES IN SILENCE.
>> GET ME OUT OF HERE.
I DON'T BELONG HERE.
>> Paula: BEGGING FOR HELP.
A CANADIAN WOMAN FEARS FOR HER
LIFE IN A MEXICAN PRISON.
AND MAKING A RUN FOR IT.
FAST BUT NOT FAST ENOUGH.
A TACKLED FUGITIVE'S FUTILE CRY.
>> MOM.
[♪♪♪]
>> Paula: GOOD EVENING, AND
WELCOME TO "THE VERDICT".
I'M PAULA TODD.
THE CRACK OF GUN FIRE ON
TORONTO'S BUSIEST STREET SENT
SHOPPERS DIVING FOR COVER ON
BOXING DAY 2005.
15-YEAR-OLD JANE CREBA WAS
KILLED OUTSIDE A YOUNG STREET
STORE WHILE SHOPPING WITH HER
MOTHER AND SISTER.
SIX OTHER PEOPLE WERE INJURED
AND SEVERAL EYEWITNESSES.
ONE OF THEM WAS IDENTIFIED TODAY
AFTER SUCCESSFUL REQUESTS BY THE
GLOBE & MAIL.
POLICE ALLEGE THAT RICHARD STEEL
WAS STANDING NEXT TO CREBA JUST
BEFORE SHE WAS SHOT AND HE MAY
HAVE BEEN THE INTENDED TARGET.
BUT STEEL DOES NOT WANT TO
TESTIFY AGAINST THE TEN MEN NOW
CHARGED WITH CREBA'S KILLING.
HE SAYS HIS LIFE AND HIS
FAMILY'S WOULD BE PUT IN DANGER
IF HE BECOMES A RAT.
VALERIE STEEL IS RICHARD STEEL'S
MOTHER AND PETERS IS HIS LAWYER.
HE ARGUED TO HAVE A SUBPOENA
FORCING HIS CLIENT TO TESTIFY
THROWN OUT OF COURT AND THEY
BOTH JOIN US HERE IN STUDIO.
WELCOME TO THE VERDICT.
Mrs. STEEL YOU JUST SAW YOUR
SON, HE'S AT METRO WEST
DETENTION.
HOW IS HE DOING.
>> AS WELL AS HE CAN BE
EXPECTED.
>> Paula: HIS REACTION TO
LEARNING THAT THE JUDGE IS GOING
TO INSIST HE TESTIFY AT THE
TRIAL, WHAT IS IT?
>> I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU INSIST
THAT SOMEBODY TESTIFIES AT A
TRIAL.
I HAVE YET -- WE NEVER DISCUSSED
THAT.
>> Paula: IS HE UPSET WITH THE
COURT RULING?
>> WELL HE'S DISAPPOINTED THAT
HE HAS TO BE COMPELLED TO
TESTIFY IN RESPECT TO SOMETHING
OF WHICH THERE IS A LOT OF
INFORMATION THAT IS AVAILABLE.
THERE IS SECURITY CAMERAS THAT
CAPTURED WHAT HAPPENED ON YONGE
STREET.
HUNDREDS OF CIVILIAN WITNESSES.
THERE IS ALSO A YOUNG OFFENDER
WHO HAS GIVEN A SUBSTANTIAL
AMOUNT OF INFORMATION TO THE
POLICE IN THE FORM OF VARIOUS
STATEMENTS SO OUR ARGUMENT WAS
THAT RICHARD'S TESTIMONY WAS NOT
NECESSARY AND WE ALSO HAVE
ANOTHER PROBLEM WHERE THE POLICE
ARE SAYING THAT HE MAY HAVE BEEN
A SUSPECT WHILE WITHIN THE ONE
HAND THEY'RE SAYING HE'S
PROBABLY A SUSPECT AND THEN
THEY'RE SAYING HE'S A PERSON OF
INTEREST AND THEN SHEER SAYING
HE WAS A POSSIBLE VICTIM.
SO WE'RE HEARING THREE DIFFERENT
STATEMENTS FROM THE POLICE SO
THERE IS A CONCERN WITH RESPECT
TO THE IMPACT OF HIM TAKING THE
STAND.
>> Paula: TELL ME ABOUT THE
IMPACT.
Mrs. STEELE WHAT ARE YOU
WORRIED ABOUT IF YOUR SON
TESTIFIES?
>> OVERALL WE IN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY CAN SAY UNQUIFLY THAT
WE DO NOT HAVE ANYBODY
PROTECTING US.
WE DO NOT HAVE ANYBODY SERVING
US AND I DON'T THINK YOU KNOW ME
WELL, BUT I HAVE BEEN AROUND A
THIS COMMUNITY FOR A LONG TIME
AND IN THE YEAR 2,000 I TOLD OUR
THEN CHIEF OF POLICE
HEADQUARTERS THAT IF NOTHING IS
DONE ABOUT GUN TRAFFICKING THAT
WOULD HAVE BEEN THE TIP OF THE
ICEBERG EVENT.
NOBODY LISTENED BECAUSE AT THAT
TIME, WE WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE
THAT WERE BEING KILLED.
SO, THEREFORE, WHEN THE BULLETS
ARE FLYING IN OTHER DIRECTIONS,
ALL OF A SUDDEN, ALL OF CANADA,
ALL OF TORONTO ARE QUITE
CONCERNED BUT WHEN THE BULLETS
WERE FLYING IN THE BLACK
COMMUNITY AND I ALSO TOLD THEM
THEN THAT WE WEREN'T BUILDING A
WALL TO CONTAIN THE VIOLENCE
STRICTLY IN OUR COMMUNITY.
>> Paula: ISN'T YOUR SON
RICHARD ALREADY IN JAIL RIGHT
NOW ON WEAPONS CHARGES ON A
CONVICTION FOR WEAPONS
POSSESSION.
>> WELL CONSPIRACY HE WAS IN
CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE ABOUT
GUNS AND ALL THAT BUT HE NEVER,
THEY DIDN'T PHYSICALLY SEE HIM
WITH ANY GUN OR WASN'T SELLING
ANY GUN TO ANYONE.
SO CONSPIRACY IS DIFFERENT THAN
LITERALLY BUT AT THE END OF THE
DAY WE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY
HAVE ALWAYS SPOKEN TO THE
VIOLENCE THAT HAD BESET US.
NOBODY LISTENED.
>> Paula: WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID
OF.
WHO IS YOUR CLIENT AFRAID OF AND
WHY?
>> WELL MY CLIENT IS IN PRISON
AND THERE IS A CULTURE AMONG
CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS, AMONGST
PRISON INMATES AND EVEN AMONGST
POLICE OFFICERS WHERE THERE IS A
CODE OF SILENCE WHERE PEOPLE ARE
NOT -- IF YOU'RE NOT WITHIN THE
VARIOUS SUB CULTURES YOU'RE NOT
SUPPOSED TO RAT ON A COLLEAGUE.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SOLID.
THE POLICE CULTURE HAS THAT THE
CORRECTIONAL CULTURE HAS THAT
AND THE JAIL INMATE CULTURE ALSO
EMULATES THAT.
>> Paula: HAS RICHARD ACTUALLY
BEEN THREATENED.
HAS HE BEEN TOLD IF HE TESTIFIES
HE COULD WIND UP HARMED OR EVEN
DEAD.
>> WELL THE CODE OF SILENCE, NO
ONE HAS TO TELL YOU THAT.
EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT A CODE OF
SILENCE IS IN ANY SUBCULTURAL
ORGANIZATION.
I MEAN, WHETHER IT'S SUBCULTURE
THAT IS CRIMINAL IN NATURE OR A
SUBCULTURE THAT'S LEGITIMATE.
>> Paula: Mrs. STEELE YOU
MENTIONED THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED
THAT YOU DON'T THINK AUTHORITIES
OR THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE TAKES
THE HARM TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY
SUFFICIENTLY SERIOUS.
IS THAT WHY YOU THINK YOUR SON
SHOULDN'T TESTIFY?
>> I AM NOT JUST GOING TO
ADDRESS MY SON BECAUSE MY SON
AND I ARE A PART OF THE
AFRICAN-CANADIAN COMMUNITY.
WHATEVER HAPPENS TO THE
AFRICAN-CANADIAN COMMUNITY
REGARDLESS OF WHERE OUR
SOCIOECONOMIC LADDER IS WHAT
RUNNING OF THE LADDER WE'RE ON
WE'RE STILL IN THAT COMMUNITY.
I'M A PART OF THAT COMMUNITY AND
I WAS ALWAYS FELT THAT THE
POWERS AT BE HAVE NEVER LOOKED
AFTER US.
AND WHEN THINGS JUST BEGIN TO
FESTER, WE ARE NEGLECTED.
WE HAVE BECOME FODDER FOR A
PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
NOBODY REALLY CARES.
AND THEY HAVE SPENT SO MUCH
MONEY ON THE CREBA SHOOTING.
IF THEY HAD SPENT 1/100th OF
THAT RESOURCES WHEN ALL OF THAT
WERE IN THAT AT-RISK COMMUNITY
WE WOULDN'T BE HERE TODAY.
SO ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT THE
THEWIDER COMMUNITY CAN SIT THERE
AND MOURN ABOUT BOXING DAY BUT
WE HAVE BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT THAT
FROM THE 90s.
WE SAW THAT AND LIVED THAT.
>> Paula: WHY DOESN'T WANT
YOUR SON WANT TO TESTIFY TO HELP
PUT AWAY WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR THE VIOLENCE.
>> THE FUNNY PART ABOUT IT IS
THEY KEEP SAYING HE IS A
SUSPECT.
THEY KEEP SAYING HE'S A WITNESS.
WHICH ONE IS IT.
>> Paula: I SEE ALL RIGHT.
>> SO THE CHARTER OF RIGHTS
PROTECT US TOO.
WE HAVE A RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT
TOO.
>> Paula: I'M GOING TO HAVE TO
LEAVE IT THERE.
THAT IS VALERI STEELE.
THERE IS NOTHING NEW ABOUT THE
CULTURE OF SILENCE BUT IT'S
BECOME A PUBLIC CAMPAIGN.
THE MESSAGE TO STOP SNITCHING IS
IN RAP LYRICS AND ON T-SHIRTS.
PEOPLE ARE BEING ENCOURAGED NOT
TO SPEAK TO POLICE EVEN WHEN
THEY WITNESS VIOLENT CRIMES.
THE THREAT IS THAT IF SOMEONE IS
EVEN SUSPECTED OF BEING A SNITCH
THEY COULD END UP DEAD.
I AM MORTAL TECHNIQUE IS A
RAPPER FROM BROOKLYN AND THE
OWNER OF VIPER RECORDS.
HE JOINS US IN NEW YORK AND JOHN
MUSE IS A RETIRED TORONTO POLICE
OFFICERS WHO HAS WORKED WITH
YOUTH HE'S HERE IN STUDIO.
BUT I WANT TO TALK, HOW DO I
ADDRESS YOU Mr. I AM MORTAL.
>> TECHNIQUE IS FINAL.
>> TECH MAYBE FOR SHORT.
>> I'M ACTUALLY FROM HARLEM NOT
BROOKLYN BUT THAT'S ALL RIGHT.
>> Paula: THAT'S A FINE
DISTINCTION AND THAT'S ONE I'M
HAPPY TO MAKE FOR YOU.
TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
THIS TREND.
WHY ARE YOUNG PEOPLE BEING
ENCOURAGED TO STICK TOGETHER AND
NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE AGAINST
EACH OTHER?
>> WELL I THINK THERE ARE TWO
REAL ISSUES HERE.
ONE IS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY
AND ANOTHER ONE IS THE
GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITY.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SOMETIMES
SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE TO
PEOPLE WHEN IT GIVES SPECIAL
PRIVILEGES TO CERTAIN SNITCHES
LIKE IF YOU'RE A MURDERER OR
YOU'RE A BIG DRUG DEALER, WHO
BRINGS IN LOTS OF LITTLE DRUG
DEALERS THAT'S THE TREND NOW
INSTEAD OF BEING A LITTLE DRUG
DEALER CASMING THE LITTLE GUY
CATCHING THE BIG GUY BUT IF YOU
ARE ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO
ENGAGES IN THIS ILLICIT, ILLEGAL
ACTIVITY YOU KNOW IT'S ALMOST --
IT'S LIKE THE GOVERNMENT IS
SAYING IT'S OKAY AS LONG AS
YOU'RE SNITCHING FOR US.
THAT'S THE SAME MESSAGE THAT
AMERICA SEEMS TO SEND OUT
INTERNATIONALLY TO PEOPLE.
IT'S ALL RIGHT IF YOU'RE AN
AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.
IT'S ALL RIGHT IF YOU'RE A
PUPPET DEMOCRACY IN NAME ONLY.
IT'S ALL RIGHT IF YOU ARE MUSLIM
FUNDAMENTALIST NATION IN SAUDI
ARABIA.
IT'S ALL RIGHT IF YOU'RE ALL
THESE THINGS AS LONG AS YOU'RE
OUR ASSET.
AS LONG AS YOU MAKE MONEY FOR
US.
THAT'S I THINK THE WRONG MESSAGE
THAT IT SENDS OUT TO A LOT OF
PEOPLE AND PEOPLE SEE A DOUBLE
STANDARD.
>> Paula: LET ME JUMP IN.
IS IT THE DOUBLE STANDARD I
HEARD THIS TOO.
I HEARD PEOPLE SAY WELL THEY
DON'T HELP US WHY SHOULD WE HELP
THEM.
WOULD YOU STAND --
>> IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF THEM
HELPING US I DEFINITELY DO
BELIEVE IN PERSONAL
RESPONSIBILITY IN THE COMMUNITY.
I THINK THAT WE AS A COMMUNITY
SHOULDN'T JUST DEPEND ON THE
POLICE TO SOLVE CRIMES WE SHOULD
ALSO DEPEND ON THE COMMUNITY TO
POLICE THE COMMUNITY AS WELL TO
REFUSE TO ALLOW A LOT OF THESE
THINGS TO GO ON IN THERE AND
CONFRONT THEM PERSONALLY BUT I
THINK --
>> Paula: I WANT TO BRING JOHN
MUSE HERE IN.
JOHN, YOU HEAR TECHNIQUE TALKING
ABOUT SELF POLICING, HOW DO YOU
THOUGH DELIVER JUSTICE WHEN
PEOPLE WON'T EVEN TELL THE
AUTHORITIES WHAT IS GOING ON.
>> WELL IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.
AND I THINK THE COMMUNITY THAT
WON'T TELL THE POLICE, PEOPLE
WANT TO LAY THIS ON THE COPS
THEY WANT TO LAY IT ON
CORRECTIONS OFFICER YOU KNOW
THEY WANT TO LAY IT ON THE BIG
BAD GOVERNMENT AND Mr.
TECHNIQUE DOES THAT VERY MUCH
AND IN MUCH OF HIS WRITING AND
HIS LYRICS, BUT I THINK IT'S AN
ABSOLUTE COP-OUT BUT YEAH IT IS
DIFFICULT SO UNTIL THESE
COMMUNITIES AGREE THAT STOPPING
CRIME AND STOPPING THE KILLING
AND STOPPING THE WAR THAT'S
TAKING PLACE ON OUR URBAN
STREETS BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT
IS.
IT'S A WAR.
IT'S AN URBAN WAR FAIR NOTHING
IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
>> Paula: TECHNIQUE WHAT DO
YOU THINK?
>> WELL I THINK THAT'S THE
BIGGEST PROBLEM I HAVE WITH
GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND WITH
PEOPLE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO
BLAME HIP-HOP INSTEAD OF
SOCIETY'S ILLS WHO SAY THEY'RE
COVERING UP OR WE'RE BEING AN
POLL GIST FOR THE VIOLENCE THAT
GOES ON IN THE COMMUNITY AND
THEY KEEP REPEATING THESE THINGS
UNTIL NAIVE AMERICANS OR
CANADIANS START TO BELIEVE THEM.
IT'S HIP-HOP THAT IS RUNNING OUR
COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND.
IT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE YOU
KNOW, THE MESSED UP HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM HERE IN AMERICA YOU KNOW.
PEOPLE LOVE TO FIND A SCAPEGOAT
IN EVERYTHING YOU KNOW AND IF
GOVERNMENT -- HOLD ON LET ME
FINISH AND IF THE GOVERNMENT
REALLY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT
SNITCHING, WELL THEN I THINK THE
GOVERNMENT SHOULD LEAD BY
EXAMPLE AND WHEN PEOPLE POSE THE
QUESTION TO ME IF LAW
ENFORCEMENT SAY HEY IF SOMETHING
GOES WRONG IN THE COMMUNITY ARE
YOU GOING TO BE OUT THERE
TALKING ABOUT IT.
I'M THE ONE WHO POSES THE
QUESTION TO THEM AND SAY WELL IF
YOU SEE AN OFFICER ABUSING HIS
PRIVILEGES I'VE NEVER SEEN THE
POLICE TESTIFY AGAINST THE
POLICE AND SAY THEY BEAT THEM
DOWN.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT Mr. TECHNIQUE
ACTUALLY --
>> THEY DO HAVE INTERNAL AFFAIRS
BUT A PRICE FOR THAT AMONG COPS.
A BLUE WALL OF SILENCE.
>> CAN I SPEAK.
ACTUALLY Mr. TECHNIQUE, THE
REALITY IS YOU'RE TALKING TO A
POLICE OFFICER.
>> I KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
>> LET ME FINISH.
WHEN I WAS 25-YEARS-OLD I BOUGHT
DRUGS OFF POLICE OFFICERS THAT
WERE CORRUPT AND DOING THE WRONG
THING SO YOU KNOW WHAT, HONESTLY
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY NEEDS A
LECTURE ON WHETHER YOU KNOW THE
COPS ARE ARE DOING THE JOB BUT I
THINK THE REALITY IS WE NEED TO
TALK ABOUT SNITCHING AND RATTING
AND WHAT YOU AND OTHER ARTISTS
LIKE YOU, PEOPLE THAT I THINK
ARE ARE REALLY GOOD BUSINESSMAN
AND COMMUNICATORS MAKING A LOT
OF MONEY FROM THIS.
I THINK WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT
HOW MORALLY BANKRUPT AND HOW
PERVERSE IT IS THAT YOU WON'T
REPORT TO THE POLICE AND I'LL
GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE ON BOXING
DAY 2005 IN THIS CITY OF
TORONTO, A BEAUTIFUL YOUNG GIRL,
A 15-YEAR-OLD GIRL BY THE NAME
OF JANE CREBA GOT SHOT IN THE
BACK BECAUSE A WHOLE BUNCH OF
THUGS DECIDED TO HAVE IT OUT ON
A STREET WITH WHAT I SUSPECT ARE
THEIR ILLEGAL HANDGUNS AND THEY
EMPTIED THEIR CLIPS AND HAD A
JOLLY OLD GOOD TIME AND THE
GENTLEMAN THAT WAS SPOKEN ABOUT
EARLIER ON THE SHOW HAPPENED TO
BE IN THE LINE OF FIRE.
HE DOESN'T WANT TO TESTIFY.
NOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT HE'S
SCARED OUT OF HIS MIND YOU KNOW
WHAT I DON'T SUSPECT THAT YOUR
PRONE TO BEING SCARED Mr.
TECHNIQUE.
LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IF A
BEAUTIFUL YOUNG GIRL THAT WAS 15
THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR
CULTURE, NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR
GANGSTER CULTURE WOULD YOU --
>> MY GANGSTER CULTURE.
YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE
MUSIC THAT I MAKE.
YOU NEVER EVEN HEARD A SINGLE
SONG.
>> WOULD YOU TESTIFY?
>> IF THERE WAS A COP, SEE THIS
IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT THE
EXACT SAME THING --
>> WOULD YOU TESTIFY Mr.
TECHNIQUE?
>> I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE.
>> YOU WON'T ANSWER THE
QUESTION.
>> IT'S NOT THAT I DON'T WANT TO
ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU'RE
POSING A LOADED QUESTION SIR.
>> WELL YOU KNOW WHAT YOU
ANSWERED MY QUESTION.
YOU DON'T WANT TO TESTIFY.
YOU'RE MAKING A LOT OF MONEY.
>> YOU BLAME HIP-HOP.
>> Paula: LET ME JUMP IN FOR A
QUICK SECOND.
>> I'M NOT ONE OF THE GIGANTIC
LABEL PEOPLE THAT SELL PLATINUM
RECORDS.
LET GO DEEP INTO IT.
MOST OF THE ARTISTS THAT DO MAKE
A LOT OF MONEY THEY SEND THEIR
KIDS TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.
NOT TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
THEY DON'T WANT THEIR CHILDREN
BEING CAUGHT UP IN IN.
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY FROM THE
HIP-HOP COMMUNITY WANTS TO SEE
AN INNOCENT GIRL MURDERED.
>> Paula: BUT TECHNIQUE LET ME
JUST JUMP IN FOR A SECOND.
I'M NOT GOING TO SUGGEST THAT
THEY ARE YOUR LYRICS BUT YOU
KNOW VERY WELL THERE ARE SONGS
VERY POPULAR ANYBODY CAN GOOGLE
IT I CAN'T USE THE LANGUAGE ON
THE AIR RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN PRIME
TIME, BUT THEY DO SAY DON'T
SNITCH AND SNITCHING IS GOING TO
GET YOU IN TROUBLE AND SNITCHING
ISN'T BEING A MAN.
AND SNITCHING IS BETRAYING YOUR
BROTHERS.
ARE YOU BEHIND THAT MESSAGE.
DO YOU SUPPORT THAT?
>> SEE THIS IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
FOR ME, IF -- I THINK THAT THE
COMMUNITY NEEDS TO GET DIRECTLY
INVOLVED IN POLICING ITSELF.
IT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION THAT WE
SHOULD LEAVE IT UP TO LAW
ENFORCEMENT.
I THINK THAT ALSO --
>> WHO IS GOING TO DECIDE.
WHO DO WE BUST AND DON'T BUST.
>> Paula: LET'S LET HIM TALK.
>> BUT THE BOTTOM LINE BEING IS
THAT I'VE NEVER SEEN SOMEBODY
BLAME ROCK'N ROLL FOR THE
DOWNFALL OF THE SOVIET UNION OR
BLAME -- NOW PEOPLE ARE SAYING
IT'S HIP-HOP BRINGING DOWN THE