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Ladies and gentlemen, will you please welcome Rick Kupchella? (Applause) Rick Kupchella:
Good evening! Good evening everyone and thank you for joining us here tonight we very much
appreciate it. the candidate conversation with Bring Me The News live at the Pantages
Theater in downtown Minneapolis. We also want to extend a special welcome to our audience
that is listening on radio across the state this evening including KTLK, and on television
the UCW network right here in the Twin Cities, channel 23 will be broadcasting this program
as well. I gotta tell you that there are hey, if you haven’t heard, online, we’re BringMeTheNews.com,
streaming live, and on Facebook we’re doing the same. A lot has gone in to making tonight
happen. I want to say a special thank you to our production partners in this effort
tonight, The Citizens League and the Lead Project. The Citizens League is all about
working to engage the public more in public policy. And The Lead Project is about involving
young people in the Twin Cities more in the philanthropic and charitable communities of
the Twin Cities. You can learn more about both of these organizations at BringMeTheNews.com.
And a special note of thanks tonight to the sponsors that have made this evening possible.
There are four of them. The Minnesota Association of Realtors, Target Corporation, the law firm
of Dorsey and Whitney, and Politics in Minnesota and the Capitol Report as well. A special
thank you to them, making this evening possible. We're going to bring the candidates out in
just a moment but first I want to give you an idea of how this is going to work. The
conversation here is basically going to be driven on three rails, okay. I’ve got a
few conversation items of my own, a few questions myself. We also have several thought leaders
in the Twin Cities that we’ve talked to over the course of the last week or so. They'll
be coming in with questions of their own on video. And of course, social media. We are
bringing in questions from Facebook and Twitter as the evening goes on. And you can follow
that conversation, we encourage you to do so as well even online, you can contribute
to what we’re doing here tonight via Facebook and Twitter, the hashtag is #debatemn. So,
let’s get to it. This is one of two times this evening we’re going to encourage the
audience here at the Pantages to be heard loud and clear. Please join me in welcoming
the candidates in alphabetical order: Democrat Mark Dayton (applause), Republican Tom Emmer
(applause) and Independent Party candidate Tom Horner (applause). Thank you sir. It’s
good to see you, thank you. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us tonight,
we really appreciate it. We’ve got a lot to go over tonight, we’re going to try to
keep the conversation moving and we want to hear from you. We’d like to dive deep on
a few things. But just as a reminder, you know, is this is a story from , well, my daughter
was, she was in the third grade, you know the line as the school report, on Shakespeare
– Socrates. Socrates, it was a simple three-sentence report. Socrates was a philosopher. He talked
a lot. They killed him. (audience laughs) Okay? You can’t, you know, kids today, they
can cut right to it. Just keep that in the back of your mind as we, as we move along. Rick
Kupchella: So in addition to some of the big kind of umbrella issues that we’re talking
about tonight, the issues that the Minnesota citizens are dealing with: jobs, the economy
of course, very high on the list of priorities, we’re also interested in learning more about
the candidates, the individuals who seek this office who would become governor. You’re
looking to serve as Chief Executive Officer at a time right now when we’re at the you
know worst economic situation we've been at in a generation, the question of ability to
govern is kind of an overarching thing we want to start off with here tonight. Each
of you brings to the table your own set of pros and cons if you will, maybe even Achilles
heels at some stage of the game depending on how you want to look at it. That’s where
we want to start tonight, I’d like to start with Mr. Horner, Independent Party candidate.
You know when we look at your record as we you know set into the evening here on your
ability to govern, what it can tell us, you know, the thing that stands out most of all
quickly is really lack of a record in this kind of arena. Even Jesse Ventura, when he
ran for governor, you know had been on a City Council prior to running for Governor. You're
looking to start public service at the top of the heap here, and if you’re able to
pull it off you will be a leader without a major party at the Capitol. The question is,
how do you establish your ability to govern in an environment where you have no direct
experience and no party machine in the legislative process? Mr. Horner. Tom Horner: So is this
the softball question, Rick? (audience laughs) Well, first of all, I disagree with the premise.
I don’t think I come without a record in public service. Quite the contrary, I think
I bring a record of public service very much in keeping with the Governors who have been
most successful in Minnesota’s history. An Elmer L. Anderson, a Harold LeVander, people
who came from a background of community involvement, some public policy background, and running
a business. And I think that at this point in Minnesota’s future, that’s exactly
the combination of leadership that is needed. And so what I say to Minnesotans is that I’m
not asking you to turn your back forever on lifelong loyalties. I think quite the contrary,
this is one race, one year, one candidate where Minnesota needs an independent thinking
governor. And so how do I govern? I think I govern in the way that all the best Minnesota
governors have been successful. First, by making sure that we always understand that
the governor’s office, public policy, is really a public trust. And what we need to
do for any governor to be successful the next four years is to engage the public, get them
involved in making the decisions, bring back that 60 – 70% of Minnesotans who have been
pushed to the sidelines. Don’t wait for consensus to form in the Legislature, that’s
not going to happen. Forge it in the public and impose it. Secondly, I think the lesson
from Jesse Ventura is that you do appoint the cabinet that is the best and the brightest.
The people are there because they aren’t a debt paid off to a special interest to this
group or that, but because they understand the issues, they have relationships. Rick
Kupchella: Ultimately though you’re going to need to get the support out of the Legislature.
You’re gonna need to find a consensus there without a major party. How do you have that
appeal? How do you do it? Tom Horner: I think the better question is, how do people who
have put their stakes in the ground around such narrow issues, I mean one side that says
“We’re just going to try to tax everything,” and another side that says “We’re going
to try to continue at a more aggressive level the record of the past eight years.” How
do they forget the consensus between Republicans and Democrats? I believe it is only an Independent
that can find common ground, that can broker that common-sense solution between Democrats
and Republicans. 08:04 Rick Kupchella: You will need to do it at the Legislature. Tom
Horner: I think you need to do it at legislature, I think you need to do it in public, I think
you need to do it in the hearing rooms of the Legislature. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Emmer,
on your left here you have a couple of candidates that you have been competing with for some
time now. You know the issues where they are on the issues, relative to you, where you
are relative to them. On your right, Mr. Emmer, there’s nobody. (audience laughs) Rick
Kupchella: Okay. Tom Emmer: Is that where Socrates sat? Rick Kupchella: (Laughs) That’s
a good question! You have really come to define your political career the far right of the
right spectrum. How do you establish an ability to govern, bring people together in a Legislative
process, and your political career and your trajectory if you will has all been at the
outer rim? Tom Emmer: Well I don't know where that comes from. When others define you, I
suppose they’re going to try to define you the way they see you as opposed to the way
you are. And those others are typically the folks writing the written word. I don’t
know when it became extreme to believe that there is a right and wrong. I don’t know
when it became extreme to know that people need to be responsible for their own actions.
These are many things that we agree with. So I guess when somebody says that you represent
one side or the other, that’s not true Rick. I would tell you as somebody who’s served
on city councils for almost 10 years, and that is the ultimate public service, that
and school boards. Once I got to the Legislature I didn’t change who I was. And when I walk
through to show you just that when you're a city council member you don’t declare
whether you’re a Democrat a Republican or other, you just do your job. And when I walked
through my first parade after becoming a state representative, all right, I served one year.
It was the summer of 2005, I believe. Walking through the Delano Fourth of July parade.
I got to the end of the parade a little old lady in her folding chair jumped up, ran out
to the middle of the street, gave me a big hug Rick and said, “Why did you have to
be a Republican? You could have made such a good Democrat.” Okay? I’d, I will tell
you right now. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Dayton might argue with that. (audience laughs) Tom
Emmer: Well, it depends on who you are. This is about representing a certain set of principles
and what we’re talking about in this campaign, quite simply is smaller government, more efficient
government, making sure that people the citizens have the resources that they need to create
new opportunities and get Minnesotans back to work. I suggest to you that's not an extreme
point of view whatsoever. That's mainstream. Rick Kupchella: Okay. Let’s just talk for a moment
about this notion of far end of the right side of the spectrum, okay. This when in the
news the Arizona piece on immigration. Okay. It was a classic. You had Chris Coleman, mayor
of St. Paul, very much a liberal Democrat, talking about the the draconian nature of
the law in Arizona on immigration. Your quote was “It’s a wonderful first step.” Okay?
That seems to lead on the right edge of the party. Tom Emmer: Well if you want to hear
the rest of the story. Government enforcing the laws that it enacts is not a bad thing.
But when it comes to immigration there’s a much bigger issue. And when you take sound
bites like that you can interpret them any way you want. What we should be talking about
is we should talk about how we make sure that people come to this country in a legal fashion
and become contributing members to our communities. Because that’s ultimately what we all want.
We, I think it’s not a party thing anymore. I think people here understand, people all
over Minnesota and this country, understand the federal government has completely abdicated
its responsibility to secure our borders and make sure that we have a good flow of immigrants
coming to this country. Because after all if we ever have a day when people don’t
want to come to enjoy the freedom and opportunity that this country presents, we’ve all lost.
The statement was simply if you are a nation of laws then let's make sure the federal government
enforces the border and make sure that people can come here legally. That’s all it was
about and we should all be about that ultimately. Immigration should not be this emotional issue
that it’s become. And frankly we’ve created it in Minnesota. Because we get people who
are asked to support all the wonderful programs we’ve created in government? And what do
you expect people to do when they come to this country? They’re going to access those
programs. Y’know, rather than making the people that are coming here to enjoy the freedom
and opportunity that the untied States offers, making them the enemy, let’s make them our
friend by making sure we encourage in the next Governor, whoever it should be, should
encourage the federal Government to do its job when it comes to immigration so that we
can continue to have people come to this country not only enjoy the freedom and opportunity
that it offers, but make sure that they become contributing members to our communities. Rick
Kupchella: Mr. Dayton, you have discussed very openly, honestly, very publicly, your
ongoing struggles with depression and alcoholism, issues that you say you’ve wrestled with
personally. At least as recently as your time in the US Senate. Stress is a primary trigger
for depression. You’re walking into as a Chief Executive Officer of this state, a live
pressure cooker, the definition of a hostile work environment. How do you establish your
ability to govern, given the very real and contemporary health issues that you have discussed?
Mark Dayton: Well, many Minnesotans are understanding of these, y’know I disclosed
before I ran for the U.S. Senate, back before I ran for state auditor that I was going into
treatment for alcoholism. I’m a recovering alcoholic and I don’t think that affected
people’s opinions of me. In fact a lot of people came to me as they did last December
and thanked me for being honest and open and shared with me their own struggles. I think,
I think that those experiences have made me a better leader because I understand the human
condition. And we all have our struggles. And we all have our challenges. And I think
that overcoming those has made me a stronger person, a better human being and I believe
a better leader. Y’know, I’ve dealt with stress all my life. I was a hockey goalie.
I dealt with high stress there and I dealt with stress on walking into a ghetto school
with knives and guns, two kids shot and killed outside the school the first year I taught,
the gangs in there and on the streets where I served and worked for a runaway house in
Boston, and I’ve been in pressure cooker situations running for office over these years,
and I admitted I slipped once in the U.S. Senate, I’m not perfect. But I’m proud
of my six years of service there. I stood with Paul Wellstone as two of 23 Senators
to oppose the Iraq War. And stood working cooperatively across the aisle in 2006 after
going to Iraq three times and Afghanistan once, and and driving in through (14:58, unclear)
also armed, I remember going into Kabul one time with the open-air jeep, the three of
us in the back, three senators and the Marine driving, and the other, right after they had
overthrown the Taliban, and squeezing by a couple of these broken-down vehicles, with
about a half dozen or so Afghan men all armed, and my heart was in my mouth- talk about stress.
Because I thought, you know, if this is an ambush, we’re dead. As we got by, inched
by, I asked one of the Marines, I said, “How do you tell the good guys from the bad guys?”
And he smiled grimly and he said “Well, if he starts to point his gun at you, he’s
probably a bad guy.” I thought, “Well, it’s a little late to be finding that out.”
(audience laughs) So, I’ve dealt with stress all of my life. And campaigns have stress.
I’ve been campaigning now for 20 months, and we have another 48 days, high pressure
to go, people can assess being judged for themselves. But I know that I’m ready for
this job, I wouldn’t undertake it, there’s too much responsibility if I weren’t very
confident in my ability to do so. Rick Kupchella: All right, let’s move on now to some of
the issues. Mark Dayton: I’d like to point out also – Rick Kupchella: Yes sir. Mark
Dayton: Just to correct: Jesse Ventura was actually mayor, and I know because when I
was state auditor he came to visit me on an audit problem, and he came in a tank top with
his hair in a ponytail down to his waist and as he was sitting in the reception room for
about five minutes, every member of the office found the occasion to go in and look at him.
So I remember quite vividly. Rick Kupchella: (laughs) Okay. Mark Dayton: I’m not suggesting
that for the next governor of Minnesota. Rick Kupchella: Okay. It’s nothing you’ll aspire
to. Mark Dayton: It’s not an option for me, anyway. Rick Kupchella: Okay. Well we're
going to move more to the issues here at this point and I’d like to start with the big
one, the economy. Take a look on the screens here at a couple of facts that we have pulled
together. Again, we’re in the midst of what many have referred to as the great recession.
Tom Stinson, the economist for the state of Minnesota for more than 20 years, now tells
us the most recent serious recession was a set of twin recessions in the early 80s. Four
years after it started, the GDP was up and at 10% The current downturn is expected to
be much longer, five to six years. Stinson says it’ll be about the start of 2013 before
we get back to the same number of jobs we had in Minnesota in 2007. But the bigger issue
for us, the labor force will be larger so unemployment will stay relatively high, running
about 8%. Normal unemployment in Minnesota, historically, recently, 3 to 4%. The new normal
unemployment, more like 8%. Tom Stinson is focused on the dramatic need
of job training and retraining skills in a workforce looking at an environment like that.
This is his question. Tom Stinson: The thing that I would like to know is, what role if
any should state government play in rebuilding the skills of the unemployed, the long-term
unemployed, so that they can be employable in the future. Rick Kupchella: So the question,
What is the role of government in something like this? Mr. Emmer? Tom Emmer: I’ve been
in the room with Mr. Stinson, he does a great job. And that’s probably the most excited
I’ve ever seen him. (audience laughs) I hope (Emmer laughs) I hope Tom appreciates
that, Dr. Stinson. I would say that what we have is government definitely has a role.
But government’s role right now is to get out of the way. Government’s role right
now is to make sure that 1) it lives within its means because we simply cannot continue
to follow the course that we're on right now. It's not sustainable. You know, we talk about
retraining, we talk about educating our workforce. One thing that Tom doesn’t bring up, that
Tom Gillaspy talks about, is it’s not just about re-educating the current workforce but
our workforce in general. We’re facing a major labor shortage in the state of Minnesota.
Rick, I believe that the future is this: that Minnesota’s government must be redesigned.
We put out a balanced budget, more than my colleagues have done, we have put out all
the numbers, and we’re talking about this. We’re talking about not spending what government
wants to spend because it’s just not sustainable to continue to grow government at the pace
we’re doing it. For instance, health and human services budget is projected to grow
in the next biennium by 32%. If you continue that type of growth, it will eat up the entire
state budget with by 2020. You won’t have money for K12 education, won’t have money
for roads. The better answer when you ask What is government’s role? Rick Kupchella:
Yes. Tom Emmer: Government’s role is to get out of the way, let people keep more of
their resources, allow people in the marketplace to start to create new jobs and make Minnesota
attractive to new investors. Rick Kupchella: Is this a pull yourself up by your bootstraps
kind of, it’s more about individual responsibility in an environment like this? Tom Emmer: Well
gosh Rick, it’s more. Rick Kupchella: I mean that’s what’s left, right? Tom Emmer:
You can call it that or you can just say You know what, people in this state, in this country,
they – Minnesota was not built by government. It was built by people. You need to allow
the people the opportunity once again to create the opportunities they want to because they
want to improve their quality of life. And you know what, when they do that they raise
everybody else up out there. When you create new jobs you automatically will drive new
revenue That is how you pay for the services that we all expect out of government. Rick
Kupchella: Okay. Mr. Dayton, how do you see that and how do you answer that question directly?
Is this, what’s the role of government here? Mark Dayton: Well, Mr. Stinson has said himself
and I agree with him that education is the cornerstone of our past success, social and
economic, and it’s the key to ou r future success. The jobs that we’re talking about
developing and we’re talking especially about entrepreneurs who will start up new
businesses that will create new jobs. They’re looking for well educated people. Well-educated,
hardworking, productive citizens have always been Minnesota’s great strength. And what
both Mr. Stinson and Mr. Gillaspy, as Representative Emmer has referred to, have said, We run the
risk if we sacrifice our strengths: education, a good healthcare system, good state and local
government services, a good infrastructure, and we’re never going to compete and we
don’t want to with fifty sixty cent an hour jobs in China or Cambodia. But we will sacrifice
the strengths that make us attractive to these startups, to these entrepreneurs, we educate
the entrepreneurs, that’s why we need a premier university of Minnesota, and MnSCU
colleges and universities. Rick Kupchella: So the focus should be on education long term. Mark
Dayton: Long term, absolutely education. In the short term, the things we can do next
year, and I would do, y’know, a 28,000-jobs bonding bill. An energy savings fund such
as they have at the University of Minnesota/Morris where they renovating all the buildings, changing
to an alternative fuel, and if we did that with every state college and university building,
with our state and local government buildings, we could transform the public sector’s energy
use in Minnesota, and that could put thousands of people back to work in those projects and
save the taxpayers money over those, that decade. So there are ways we can take the
initiative and there is a role for government as I learned when I was Commissioner of Economic
Development working with the last great jobs Governor, Rudy Perpich. There’s a role that
I’ll assume as Governor to go to any business anywhere in Minnesota or this nation or this
world where there’s a job to be gained or a job to be had for Minnesota. Rick Kupchella:
Furthering this line here I want you to take a look at this question want to take a look
at a question that’s come in on Facebook. This came in just a little while ago, within
the last day or so. This is from Peter Meyerson. And he’s asking very specifically, “Do
you plan to seek cuts in entitlements? If so, specifically where? Also, what plans do
you have to seek cuts in education?” I want to grab the education first because I think
everybody would stipulate I think, all of you have said you will not touch K-12 education
funding. Is that correct? Yes? Tom Horner: Yes but Rick, let me answer the job training
question. Because before we go to a different topic, because I think the question was Do
we agree that government has a role in training workers for the kinds of jobs that we’re
going to have in today’s economy. And the answer is yes. Rick Kupchella: That role?
(audience laughs) Tom Horner: Well, the, the the role is that we don’t turn back
the clock and try to spend our way out of it but we don’t ignore all of those Minnesotans
who have played by the rules, who now have the rug pulled out from under them. We do
need to relook at that education. We do need to look at the role of government. Lookit.
What Dr. Stinson really talks about is that we are at a transformational time in in the
economy. It’s not just training people for jobs that used to exist, it’s not just training
people for the kinds of jobs that are moving to South Dakota. It’s training jobs for
those good, well-paying career jobs that we want in Minnesota. And so that’s going to
take a whole different way of looking at education. It’s going to take a conversation around
our great two- and four-year schools, both the vo-tech and the community colleges. But
it’s also going to take a new attitude In which we say that education no longer is in
these neat little silos. It is cradle to grave and government does have a role, in making
sure that that 55-year-old who isn’t going to Find a job without new skills, without
the ability to compete, has the opportunity to compete. Rick Kupchella: Okay. Tom Horner:
in the economy. Rick Kupchella: I want to get to, I really want to get to some of the
specifics here. Ah, we’re gonna keep this train going, and we’re gonna look at a chart.
Okay, this is a pie chart, it’s been put together by a couple of folks we know at the
Citizens League, The Minnesota Taxpayers Association. You guys are familiar with these numbers.
Okay. Thirty-three billion dollar two-year General Fund that we’re looking at. Half
of this budget is earmarked for K-12 education and public safety and debt service basically.
That leaves 15 to 17 billion arguably on the table for a six billion dollar budget deficit
we’re looking to cut. When you look at a chart like this, when you look at the numbers
that play out like this, where do you pull the six billion from specifically. Specifically,
where do you go to get the money for this deficit that we’re dealing with. You’ve
got Health and Human Services at nine billion, local aid to government three, higher ed three. Mark
Dayton: But you’re looking backward, not forward. You’re looking at this biennium.
The K-12 education, for example is the same level of funding, is the 13.8 billion used
to just because there’s 500 million dollars in federal stimulus money that doesn’t show
up there and it’s projected to be under the school funding formula going into the
next biennium, we’re going to have over 10,000 more students in our K-12 schools in
2012 as we did in 2010. So that’s one of the reasons that the projection, if you include
also the shift which this Governor and Legislature foisted on the next Governor and Legislature,
and 1.2 billion of that is required under existing state law to be repaid in the next
biennium. If you include those then the K-12 education commitment of the state under current
law is about 15.6 billion dollars. Now both of my colleagues here say they’re not going
to pay back the shift. That’s a real cut in funding. And Representative Emmer proposes,
“hold harmless” is really not the correct term because he’s going to provide 13.8
billion, and just to keep the funding required under the current formula, would go up to
14.3 billion dollars, so that’s, he’s got an effective of 11% cut in funding for
education. And that’s going in exactly the opposite direction of what Mr. Stinson said
we need to do. He also cuts higher education. Now we’ve gone from 12th highest nation,
state in the nation, in the beginning of this decade, in funding for higher education per
thousand dollars of personal income, down to 35th. That’s a 28% real cut in funding
for every full-time student. It’s one of the reasons that young people can’t afford
to go to college in Minnesota, their parents can’t afford to send them there, tuition
– Rick Kupchella: Even within the context Mark Dayton: - has become unaffordably high.
So, my point is you’re looking at just the spending side. There’s also, you have to
raise revenues. You have to raise revenues or you’re gonna cut education. We’re gonna
do the opposite of what we just said we need to do for the future of Minnesota. We all
seem to agree, education is crucial. For a cut in funding for education, it doesn’t
make any sense. Rick Kupchella: You, you propose to fix this in part by raising taxes?
Mark Dyaton: I do. Rick Kupchella: Yes. And, and part of that solution is this focus
on double income earners, families at $130,000 or Mark Dayton: No, no, that’s wrong: Taxable
income for a family, for a couple, of $173,000. Taxable income for an individual, $152,000.
The Department of Revenue just did an analysis and that applies to less than 4% - the Department
of Revenue’s own analysis - applies to less than 4% of Minnesota taxpayers. So yes, I
mean we do need to raise revenues and make taxes progressive for just the reasons that
you cited there, Rick. Otherwise we’re going to have drastic cuts in funding for education.
We tried that over the last decade. We’ve cut, Governor Pawlenty cut, funding for our
schools. We have overcrowded classrooms, Rick Kupchella: Yes. Mark Dayton: Four day school
weeks, we tried that. It doesn’t work. Let’s try the opposite. Rick Kupchella: But Mr.
Dayton, I’m trying to understand though when I look at and hear about the solution.
That you and your folks have come out in just the last day or so and said You know our tax
raises aren’t enough, the cuts, we need more to find - Mark Dayton: No, I said it
raises only about half of it. Because again the Department of Revenue’s analysis with
the numbers we gave them is it applies to less than 4% of taxpayers. So we’re gong
back Rick Kupchella: But even given that, you are how going to Mark Dayton: Can I
just finish? It’s going back to the Department of Revenue with an additional set of assumptions.
I’ll find the money but the difference is rick, I’m gonna make taxes more progressive
in Minnesota, my friends are going to make taxes more regressive. Mr. Horner’s gonna
raise the sales tax, or extend it to services and to clothing, middle income families pay
2 -1/2 times the percent of their income in sales tax as the wealthiest people in the
state. Mr., Representative Emmer is going to raise property taxes, inevitably the cities
have said so today, and that’s gonna, that’s a highly regressive tax. Middle income people
pay five times more in percent of their income in property taxes than income tax. Rick Kupchella:
I want to be able to talk with the other candidates as well but I want to understand how you
– Mark Dayton: Let me – Rick Kupchella: - are going to get the tax raise that you’re
after out of the Legislature? How do you, I mean I understand what your objective is,
I get that. I don’t, what I don’t understand is how realistically that can happen in the
Minnesota Legislature. You’re gonna have to win over a fair number of Republicans,
you’re gonna have to win over Democrats in suburbs where the dollar values you’re
targeting don’t seem so high to those families. How are you going to do it? Mark Dayton:
Well, the 201 legislators who are independently elected and they’re each going to come with
their own points of view, which is part, that’s the process. However they have the same Constitutional
obligation as the next Governor to balance the budget by the end of the session next
May. And so if I’m Governor, if they don’t like my proposals, they’re welcome to submit
their own and Rudy Perpich had a sign on his office wall that I’ll put back if I’m
Governor. It says “None of us is as smart as all of us.” And if they’re better
ideas for raising revenues and for cutting spending, that aren’t going to have draconian
effects on the quality of education, or the other services that people really do depend
upon in this state, then more power to them. That’ll be great. And that collaborative
process will produce, I hope, the best result. But what we’re finding here in this exercise
is for every dollar of revenue you don’t raise, absent job creation, and you just pointed
to the numbers there that say we’re gonna be slow in creating jobs, and the next Governor’s
not gonna impact that in five months. For every dollar of revenue you don’t raise
you have to cut a dollar of spending. Rick Kupchella: Yes. Mark Dayton: And to pretend
that’s not gonna be painful and have harmful effects, I think is just a mythology. Tom
Horner: I mean, well lookit, first of all Senator, when you talk to Senator Bakk, this
past year’s chair of the Senate Tax Committee, talk to Senator Rest, talk to people like
Representative Bentsen, talk to Art Rolnick, they’ve all said that the better approach,
the better approach is to look at the capacity we have in the sales tax. Design it fairly.
Design it in a way that isn’t regressive, and you know that I’ve put the protection
in there for low income. And we can guard against the regressivity. There is capacity
for lowering the sales tax Mark Dayton: I’m concerned about the impact on middle
income, not low income, but middle income. Tom Horner: Senator, I agree, that’s why
we’ve designed it Mark Dayton: Sales tax, you can’t (UNCLEAR) the effect on middle-income
taxpayers without spending the whole thing just to offset the very thing you’re going
to impose. Tom Horner: You know, Senator, you’re wrong. You can do that. And that’s
why Art Rolnick, that’s why Growth and Justice, that’s why the business-led commission on
tax reform, all have come to the conclusion along with many of your colleagues, exactly
the people you need to win over, and I would defy you, Senator, name 10 Senators, name
8 Legislators who are going to support you. I’ll spot you John Marty. (audience laughs) Mark
Dayton: Well, if I can’t persuade them (audience still laughs) if I can’t persuade them with
the facts, the facts being that a middle income taxpayer pays 2 ? times more percent of their
income in sales tax than the wealthiest people in the state, and I’ll point out to them,
you know, and and you know you’ll have some allies, but you don’t want to raise income
taxes on people making a million or five or ten million by even a dollar – Tom Horner:
But Senator, that’s not the issue Mark Dayton: But no, it is the issue Tom Horner:
No it’s not – Mark Dayton: It absolutely is, it’s progressive taxes versus regressive
taxes. And you want to put the sales tax on clothing and services, you won’t specify,
are these haircuts? Are these auto repairs? You know are these investments, brokerage
funds, what what exactly are you going to extend almost 3 billion dollars of sales taxes
on? Why don’t you disclose that to us? Tom Horner: When (Dayton: When?) you’re done
talking Senator I’ll explain my proposal. (Dayton: Great. Good.) (Audience laughs) Mark
Dayton: Tell us which ones. Please. Tom Horner: Senator (Dayton: Which services?)
Tom Horner: (long pause) Are we ready? (Dayton: All right.) Tom Horner: My proposal, Senator,
is to lower the rate of the sales tax, so that those people who are going out and buying
big ticket items, furniture, appliances, are going to pay less. I have 350 million dollars
in my budget, and if you’ve looked at it you’ve seen it there. And we can use that
to mitigate the impact. Now maybe we start the taxation on clothing at items at a hundred
dollars and above. Maybe we have tax holidays. The point is that all responsible people who
have looked at this, including members of your own party, have said it’s the sales
tax that we need to look at. You don’t have the votes to pass an income tax, and it is
that kind of polarization. But what we really need to get to, Rick, is to look at the kinds
of changes we need to make for the future. I greatly appreciate that all of us have put
forward a lot of details in our budget, and I think that’s a great service to Minnesota.
But when you look at the plans that Representative Emmer, that Senator Dayton have put out, there’s
a reason why Art Rolnick, who for 25 years was one of the leading economists within the
Federal Reserve System, why newspapers around the state, Mankato, other places have said,
My plan is the best. Not because we’re going to raise sales taxes because of this specific
or because of that specific, but because I’m the candidate who’s talking about the future.
I’m the candidate that says We just can’t keep taking the status quo, cutting it down
to the bone, or taking the status quo, growing it as large as we possibly can, and then wash
our hands of it and say that that work. For a lot of Minnesotans, for a lot of Minnesotans
who have played by the rules, we need to change the status quo. Because if we don’t, then
we are going to be a state in stagnation. Rick Kupchella: Ah- Tom Emmer: Don’t
I get to jump in at some point? Rick Kupchella: (laughs) You know, I was gonna say Tom Emmer:
Or do I go sit – or do I go sit with Socrates? Rick Kupchella: You know, I’ll tell ya.
Y’know, one of the things that struck me, so we’re we still have not gotten exactly
where the six billion is coming from. Right. But I was struck too by as soon as we get
real clarity on the 5.8 number and everybody's looking at it and focused on it, the the headline
that you made is “We’re gonna cut taxes 600 million for business.” Tom Emmer: Six
twenty-six. Rick Kupchella: Six twenty-six. Tom Ememr: Yep. Over two years. Rick Kupchella:
How is that the answer? Tom Emmer: How is that the answer? Rick Kupchella: Yeah. Tom
Emmer: You’ve gotta allow people the opportunity to grow their business. Every time government
takes more resources out of the private sector, every time government adds another layer of
bureaucracy for more regulation, more requirements, all it does is frustrate the growth of existing
business, and frankly creates an environment that is not attractive to new investment
and opportunity. We need to create a business environment that welcomes new business and
allows existing businesses to expand. And I’d say to both of my colleagues here, I
have the utmost respect for you. Frankly after experience this, running for statewide office
I have incredible respect for anybody who would ever submit themselves to this type
of abuse or experience. Tom Horner: And our families, I would add. Tom Emmer: I
would say, well, I hear it from Jacquie every time I come home. (Horner laughs) Tom Emmer:
But the, here’s what I’d say to both of you. You are proposing doing business as usual.
It is not about this person, that person, it’s about the direction. You gotta be honest
with the people of the state of Minnesota. I AM the only one that has taken an actual
budget and I understand it’s more than anybody’s ever done. We have said the only way you have
a five point eight billion dollar deficit is if you truly believe the government needs
to spend more than it's going to have. We have put out budgets, a budget with line items
that show you where we would suggest these monies go. You took it down but you talk Health
and Human Services, Senator, you put 12 billion dollars into Health and Human Services. The
target number we put in is actually 650 million more than what was spent in this biennium.
We are increasing the Health and Human Services budget by 650 million. The, it’s not, you’re
spending more than we have. We’re putting increases in and you talk about cutting education
funding, we’re putting 500 million more into Minnesota’s k-12 education system than
we’re doing right now. It is time that you share with the people of the state of Minnesota
what you’re really gonna do. Your plan, Senator, is not complete. It’s about three
billion dollars short by your own admission. You’ve said you're going to hold K-12 harmless,
you're going to add all this money to Health and Human Services, what are you going to
cut? Tell the citizens of the state of Minnesota. Is it public safety? Is it the courts? What
are you going to cut? Is it LGA? Mr. Horner, you do the same thing. Yours is 2 to 2-1/2
billion dollars short. You talk about redesigning government but you say you’re going to get
these teams together and you’re not telling people what is it that YOU are going to commit
not to cut? You're telling us what you're going to add. I think it’s time that, we
OWE Minnesota voters, frankly all across this country, it’s time for people running for
this office is to tell people what we need to hear, not what you think they want to hear.
We’re going to have tough decisions to make in the next few years. It’s time for leadership
that says Government must live within its means. What we are doing today is simply not
sustainable for the long term. So let’s be honest about where we’re at and then
Rick the real solution is creating a business environment that starts to grow jobs again
in the state of Minnesota. Starts to make sure that people are able to realize their
opportunity and start to have those high-paying jobs that I know we’re all talking about.
But you’ve gotta have the high-paying job in order to have the person that you have
trained through our great education system, have an opportunity to go to work. That's
the future, not do it the way we've been doing it. Mark Dayton: Well you have been honest,
Representative Emmer, and I give you credit for that. Tom Emmer: I’ve been more than
honest. Don’t say that. Mark Dayton: I know. I’m gonna give you credit. Tom Emmer:
Don’t say that. Mark Dayton: Don’t cut me off, please, Tom Emmer: I’m the ONLY
one Mark Dayton: Don’t cut me off. Please, I’m about to give you credit. You were honest
and forthright about your budget and what you propose to do, which is cut higher education
by 14%, cut K-12 education by 11% Tom Emmer: That’s not true Mark Dayton: Local government
aids by a third, which will result in property taxes, the Minnesota Department of Revenue,
which we’ve agreed is the authority, says for every dollar cut in local government aids,
67 cents goes to higher property taxes. So your proposal’s gonna result, just as Governor
Pawlenty’s did, you say No New Taxes, but we all know after Governor Pawlenty and you’re
just taking, you’re not doing anything new, you’re just taking his proposals to a further
extreme. We’re going to have higher property taxes which is again a regressive tax. I didn’t
put the health care spending in. Current law and the number of people who are elderly and
who are disabled and again, the experts say, the public health experts that three-fourths
of that budget you want to just decimate, goes to the elderly and goes to people with
disabilities. As you should have learned last year with GAMC, look at the effect of that.
You know, on paper you said we’re gonna save a couple hundred million dollars. In
reality people are suffering. People can’t get the services and the emergency rooms,
and you talk about charitable medical care, you want to clog the clinics of every doctor
in Minnesota with people who aren’t gonna have, who can’t pay for health care, and
they’re gonna go depend on the charity of doctors? You’re talking about unraveling
a system that I think the people in Minnesota understand we need cost controls, yes. But
it’s inhumane, as we saw with GAMC. The poorest of the poor people. The elderly. You
gonna throw ‘em out of nursing homes? You gonna deny them medical care? That’s what
Medicaid – if you go to greater Minnesota as you have, I know, you’ll find that most
of the medical care there is for the elderly. And they’re the ones who are gonna suffer
with your health care savings. Tom Emmer: Rick, I think people need to recognize –
Tom Horner: Here’s the problem! Tom Emmer: - Rick, that we are spending almost
10 billion dollars and it’s increasing the budget. What you are proposing when you say
that there’s these draconian cuts, first we know that you can’t bind future Legislatures
to your decision today. Every Legislature sets its own budget. All right, and to suggest
that somehow this Legislature has bound future Legislatures would mean to suggest that we
don’t need to show up again for the next biennium. The next Legislature has a big job
in front of it and Senator, if we’re gonna be honest with people in Minnesota, let’s
explain to the people in Minnesota when you talk about cuts you’re talking about what
government wants to spend. You are representing the government structure itself. I’m talking
about representing people for once that are being asked to support that structure. And
here’s the reality. The reality is that based on current projected tax collections
in the state of Minnesota, the next Governor and the next Legislature will actually have
almost three billion dollars more to spend than is being spent right now. That’s almost
a 7% increase but the numbers you just gave are based on government wanting to spend almost
17% more than what we’re going to have – or as an increase, and over and beyond.
So 10% beyond that 7% we’re gonna have. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Emmer, do you agree
Tom Horner: Well wait a minute Tom Emmer: You can’t, (Horner: Wait a second, wait
a second) cannot sustain this! Tom Horner: Does (laughs) does anybody listening to this
argument, to this debate, believe that Republicans would allow a Governor Dayton to succeed?
Or Democrats would allow a Governor Emmer to succeed? And does anybody believe that
four years of stagnation gridlock is in the best interest of Minnesota? And here is, here
is the perfect example. Representative Emmer, you did say, and I questioned you 2 or 3 times
last week, that you believe public health programs ought to be converted to charity
care? And you were very clear on that. So I agree, I think your budget numbers probably
are accurate. But you can’t put all Minnesotans, you cant’ ask that person who is suffering
from cancer to say “Go negotiate with your primary care doc and get a free ride. And
then go to the oncologist and get a free ride. And then go to the hospital and get a free
ride.” That’s not a healthcare system. That’s a disaster. But I’d also say, Senator,
that a single payer system is not a viable political option. Again, the Democrats have
had large majorities’ in the Legislature. The one vote we have had on single payer system
is when Republicans brought it up to embarrass the Democrats. It’s not a politically viable
option. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Horner, I really wanted to - Tom Horner: I’m the only one
talking about how you actually change the health care system, how you leverage the federal
reform, in a Minnesota way, building on what is working in Minnesota to produce a lower-cost
high quality care. Rick Kupchella: You know, one of the things that strikes me about what’s
going on right here, and I I hear it in an undertone of everything that all of you were
saying. The entire system, what even the public expects out of government, has to change.
When you look at the numbers on the wall, when you look at that level of disconnect,
we’ve about you know pushed off all we can defer. I’m sure there’s some other things
somebody could find, to defer for a little bit more. But the defers are running out of
time. We, we have an extraordinary budget deficit that is real. You can argue the numbers
plus or minus a little bit, and you can talk about what kind of taxes you want to raise,
one of the questions I’d like to get to, it did come in through Facebook, can we pull
up this, it’s a Bob McFarlin thing that came in on Facebook. Bob McFarlin, the former
commissioner in the transportation department. Joe, can you pull up Bob’s Facebook posting?
It basically, he asks, this goes to that question of what is the public not getting?
We talked to all of you about that in advance of this. He came out with a – “I don’t
think people understand how significantly and fundamentally our appetite for government
must change if we are to avoid a long-term economic catastrophe brought on by unsustainable
government spending and debt.” Is there any of you that disagree with that suggestion
from Mr. McFarlin? Do any of you disagree with that notion? I’m gonna start with you
Mr. Dayton. Mark Dayton: I think that there’s a difference between – I would agree with
Mr. McFarlin, who was Governor Pawlenty’s chief of staff and other roles and a very
thoughtful man. But that applies to the federal government. You know, where in the, you know.
But what we’re talking about here. Rick Kupchella: Why is it – what do you mean
it applies to the federal government? Mark Dayton: Will you let me just finish? 44:34
Because unsustainable debt is a province of the federal government. And I would agree
that you know the last decade has turned a sound fiscal situation and left to one that
is seriously in arrears, and the federal national debt has grown drastically. What we're talking
about here is a process by which, and I agree with Representative Emmer, each new legislature
and governor come in and then tackle these issues. Now, you know Mr. Horner you know
tosses out phrases like “redesign” like slogans rather than strategies and he’s
going to appoint these commissions afterwards and sort of miraculously wave a magic wand.
Having served three different times in state government, I have a lot more respect for
the knowledge and expertise there and in local government, and among the schools. And they
recognize absolutely, that some of these changes taking place and others they do occur. Rick
Kupchella: Do we have Mark Dayton: But this is self correcting Rick Kupchella: - to essentially
re-educate the public? Mark Dayton: The public’s gonna need to understand, yes,
that we need to make these adjustments. And we are. And we will. Because we are constitutionally
bound to balance the budget next May. Whoever’s next Governor and Legislature, and they will
go through this process as they do every year. So it's an ongoing process and I think we
just need to have more respect. You know government is “we the people.”
Rick Kupchella: Yes. Mark Dayton: And we the people and the people that dedicate themselves
to the state government, local governments, schools, have the expertise to lead us in
a better direction if we go through this process. And do we disagree? Sure. But that’s part
of democracy. Rick Kupchella: Okay. Mark Dayton: That’s the way it should be. Rick
Kupchella: One thing I want to get from each of you in really short order, we’re actually
three-quarters of the way through our time already, imagine. What is the most painful
thing that you could see yourself advancing, Mr. Dayton – as Governor – to get us to
a balanced budget? And to redesign what government has to be? What is going to be just the single
most painful thing you’re going to have to advance? Mark Dayton: Well, if we had
to delay repaying the shift to the schools, force them to continue to borrow, force them
to lay off teachers, force them to overcrowd classes and cut back to four-day school weeks,
that would be very painful. Rick Kupchella: Likely? Mark Dayton: That would be one point
two billion. I hope not. Rick Kupchella: Likely? Mark Dayton: I don’t think so. Rick
Kupchella: You don’t think it’s likely? Mark Dayton: Might happen. But I’m trying to
avoid it. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Horner? Single most painful thing you’d have to do. Tom
Horner: Oh, I think the redesign and along with that, some real cuts. Not, not phony
cuts but some real cuts in Rick Kupchella: “Redesign” is not inherently painful.
What’s the thing Tom Horner: In human services. In the delivery of human services.
In how we deliver health care. In our nursing homes. Lookit. We’ve got 28% of our nursing
homes in Minnesota on the edge of financial ruin. And part of it is, that we pay many
of them at or less than the cost of of doing business. Rick Kupchella: The thing. Tom
Horner: That’s what Representative Emmer – Rick Kupchella: What is the thing.
Mr. Dayton told us what the thing was. What is the thing that would be most painful for
you as Governor that you anticipate? Tom Horner: Well I think it's going to be in in
older adult services and and in health care. Rick Kupchella: It’s coming. Tom Horner: It
is coming. Absolutely. I mean, we are going to have to change it. And some of those changes
will involve real cuts. And they will be painful to people. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Emmer. Tom
Emmer: I've already done it Rick. I put it out yesterday. I actually put out a balanced
budget. And I’m going to challenge you a little bit because you said we have a deficit,
and it’s real. It is only real if you believe that what we’ve been doing in this state
for decades now, which is government gets to grow no matter what. If you believe that
government gets to spend what it wants to spend, then you’re right. We have a 5.8
billion dollar deficit. I have put a balanced budget on the table. My numbers add up to
what government will have to spend based on current tax collection projections. And that
includes 317 million dollars less in higher education. Is that painful? Yes that is. But
I’m being honest with people in the state of Minnesota. We have to look at what we’re
doing, and then guess what. Start growing the economy gets so we can pay for those things
that we expect. Rick Kupchella: Okay. Higher education though. Would that, would you put
that as the single most painful thing that you’re going to hone in? Tom Emmer: I
won’t give you that. I’ll tell you every one of these things is going to be painful.
Everything that we have proposed. There will be less government. But the exciting part
of it is, once we get the economic engine of Minnesota moving again, which is what we
have to do then you can absolutely start to pay for the services that you expect from
government. Rick Kupchella: Okay. I want to shift gears. Really. I want to go to a
piece on one of the folks, one of of the issues that have come up here repeatedly is a stadium.
You’ve heard about the stadium. You guys are familiar with the stadium. Ah, the, is
it a Facebook, is it a Twitter post, Joe: if you put up the piece on the stadium, we
have two pieces that are coming back to back. One is a Facebook posting that we got here
recently on, this is it. I’m just going to start reading and they’ll find it. It’s
actually an email, that’s why they’re having trouble there you go. “If elected
governor, what would you do to resolve the Vikings stadium issue? Please be as detailed
as possible. If you have no plans to do anything to resolve the Vikings stadium issue, please
be honest and just admit that you would readily allow the Vikings to leave the state of Mn
without doing anything to prevent it.” Rick Kupchella: I want to add to this, I want to
add to this Barreiro, Dan Barriero, our good friend at KFAN. This was his take on the same
issue. Dan Barreiro: A recent Star Tribune headline about all three candidates: “Vikes
Stadium gets three yes votes.” With all due respect to each of you, I don’t believe
any of you. Will one or more of you pledge tonight that you believe in these troubled
economic times, a Vikings stadium with a major state component makes sense, and more importantly
that you will actually spearhead and lead the charge on that particular bill?” Rick
Kupchella: All right, Mr. Horner, will you lead the charge? This is a yes or no. Will
you lead the charge? Tom Horner: Well, I will lead the charge but I also have to get
on Dan’s show because I’m the one who has laid out a very specific plan. I’ve
talked about it, I’ve also acknowledged that in the past, before I was unemployed,
I I the vikings were a client of my previous company, I didn't work on it, but that has
nothing to do with my position. I think the Vikings are important asset to Minnesota,
I think Minnesota has been an important asset to the Vikings and the NFL, so I’ve laid
out a very specific plan. I said we have to get it done in 2011. Rick Kupchella: Will
you lead the effort? Tom Horner: Absolutely! (Kupchella: You’ll lead it?) Horner: I’ve
already been doing it. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Emmer, will you lead that effort in this environment
at this time? Tom Emmer: I’m going to lead the effort to make sure that all existing
businesses in this state including the Minnesota Vikings not only survive but thrive. It’s
all of them. You’re not going to get me to say “This business is more important
than that.” There will be a Vikings stadium. I don’t think you have to do it with general
fund tax dollars but you can certainly facilitate an agreement with local authorities such as
what was proposed at the Legislature this year. And it will get done. Rick Kupchella:
Mr. Dayton Mark Dayton: Yes. Rick Kupchella: Yes. (laughs) Okay! He will lead it. Tom
Horner: Wait a second! They don’t have plans. They – you can’t do it with local government,
Representative Emmer, and you know that. There’s no capacity. I’ve put out a specific plan
that that has honest funding to it. Senator Dayton has said, “Well if we get to a crisis
then we’ll work on it.” Representative Emmer has said “Well, it’s part of a lot
of businesses.” I’ve said we need to save the Vikings. Here’s a specific plan. And
I have been leading the charge. Mark Dayton: You misrepresent my position and I need to
elaborate. Rick Kupchella: No, your position was very clear; yes, on the question at issue. Tom
Emmer: No no! He misrepresented mine. I’m sorry. Rick Kupchella: Okay! We have in eight
minutes left I want to go to another video question. This one is in from Steve Perry,
Politics in Minnesota, the Capitol Report, about a recent poll result from the Humphrey
Institute. Take a look at this one. Steve Perry: Good evening. At the end of August,
a poll conducted by the Humphrey Institute indicated something fairly remarkable. And
that was that both Senator Dayton and Representative Emmer failed to attract the support of roughly
a third of the people who counted themselves as members of the Democratic or Republican
party. My question for you two gentlemen is why is that? What is the issue with unifying
your own party’s bases? And my question for Mr. Horner is this: Given these issues
with both of the other candidates, why has your campaign failed to make greater inroads
in the polls so far? 53:24 Rick Kupchella: This is a fairly simple question Mr. Emmer.
Why do you not have 30% of your base? Tom Emmer: I actually do. Rick Kupchella: You
don’t believe the poll. Tom Emmer: Well the only poll that matters Rick is the one
on November second. But you can look at all kinds of polls that we have anywhere in the
mid-30s and up so, contrary somebody can pick whatever they want. What is the challenge?
We’re doing it right now. We’ve got 48 days. The challenge is introducing ourselves
personally to the state of Minnesota and selling our positive vision for the future of this
state. Mark Dayton: I would agree with Representative Emmer. I don’ t think any of us have failed.
I think it’s a pejorative term. These are all- campaigns are Rick Kupchella: But the
poll says you don’t have a third of your base. That’s what the poll says. Mark Dayton:
Campaigns are works in progress. We’re 48 days away from the end. And you know I came
out of a closely contested primary. And we’re reuniting the DFL party. And and I’m very
confident that we’ll do that. I’ve got tremendous support thank goodness from Speaker
Kelliher, from Representative Entenza, people that supported them, great people supported
excellent candidates are coming on board, and you know I’m glad we have forty-eight
– four days to try to convince people, Democrats, Independents, and everyone in Minnesota
that I deserve their support. But I just don’t accept that hypothesis there at all. 54:34 Tom
Horner: I accept the hypothesis. (audience laughs) Rick Kupchella: You accept the hypothesis.
Tom Horner: I mean I think that's my opportunity but it also is my challenge. And, and I think
the question is absolutely right. That I have forty eight days to get my name known. Now
the good news is once my name gets known, there’s the opportunity. These gentlemen
can’t lock up their bases. We cannot win among small-i independent voters and so for
me the challenge is what it’s always been. Can I raise the money? And since the primary
with the support of growing business leadership that is coming into my campaign the fundraising
now is going at a very very good pace. We’re on statewide TV, we’ve done some clever
ads, we’re on radio, we’re online. Rick Kupchella: You’re all saying that you have
more time. Tom Emmer: (laughs) Actually, I’m Tom Horner: I’m saying I have enough
time if I have enough money, and the money is coming in well. Tom Emmer: Rick, it's
not about the base. We have our base. I don't know the numbers he's referring and I don’t
know who he sampled, but we have our base. More importantly, this is Rick Kupchella:
That’s the Humphrey Institute (unclear) poll. Tom Emmer: Well, and we’ve got other
ones too. (audience laughs) But here’s what it’s really all about. It can’t be about
the base. It’s gotta be about Minnesota. It’s got to be about what is a common-sense
solution for Minnesota. I think that it's going be very clear come November second that
we can play all these games and talk about “I can be everything to everybody” and
do the political speak. But at the end end of the day, people in Minnesota recognize
we cannot sustain the path we are on. It’s time to do it differently. And in order to
get this thing moving again you’ve gotta create an environment that will bring new
jobs and allow existing employers to create additional jobs in the state of Minnesota.
That’s the only answer for the future. Rick Kupchella: Okay. We have time for a final
question here tonight. And it really goes, it’s rooted in this idea of society's change,
what we’re going through. On the news business side of change, we’re doing it with technology.
At the Citizens League they’re doing it both with technology and things as simple
as a policy in a pint. Trying to get people engaged in public policy. The Lead Project
is deft at their use of social networking to bring people together around philanthropic
areas. I'm interested in knowing how you see government’s role today in actively engaging
the public more in public policy. Is this the kind of thing where “Hey, those that’ll
get to the top will get to the top, it’s not government’s role to recruit ‘em”?
Or is there something we should be doing to make it easier today for people, for the public
to engage in public policy as government? I’m going to start with you Mr. Emmer. Tom
Emmer: We already have those opportunities. We need to make people feel empowered. We
need to people feel that their voice matters. And if people keep talking about business
as usual, then why should people get engaged? People in the state of Minnesota are looking
for a new direction. They understand what we’re doing isn’t working. If you show
them that, if you give them what you’re talking about, they will engage. And there
are plenty of other things you can do with technology, certainly. But the real key is
getting someone invested into participating. Because for far too long, people that vote,
people that I know, you know what they say? We have politicians, career politicians, people
involved in the political world, who keep telling us “This is what’s good for you.”
And they try to tell us that they’re going to change things, but then they get to office
and they seem to take care of their own career before they take care of the people that elected
them. It is time for leadership that comes from outside of the Capitol. People can believe
in something again, and they will engage and participate.
Rick Kupchella: Mr. Horner. Tom Horner: I mean my whole career in public service,
professional, in public policy, ahs been around engaging Minnesotans. Finding that middle
ground. Forging consensus, and out of that, creating good public policy. And I think it
starts in the campaign. I think it does start with putting out honest answers, honest solutions
by saying the same thing to every audience, even if they don’t like it. But I also think
that it starts with the kind of campaigns we’ve run. So I’m the only one who has
said “I will not run us single negative ad in my campaign,” and I will aggressively
work against any independent organization within the law to make sure they’re not
running negative ads. Because I think Tom Emmer: Tom - Tom Horner: Because I
think we owe the public, I think we owe the public, the discussion around “What is
my policy, where do I fit into the political environment?" Tom Emmer: Tom, with the eyes
going this way, that’s kind of negative. Tom Horner: Why? It was a political ad that said
we have a polarized environment. Tom Emmer: (inaudible) It’s kind of creepy. (audience
laughs) Rick Kupchella: Mr. Dayton, is there something that you would do to actively engage
the public today, or is it kind of to let them rise? Mark Dayton: First let me say
I’m very proud of my son Eric who’s one of the founders of L.E.A.D., and you know
for 221 years government has always been We the People. And I think peple have lost faith
and trust in We the People. Because they see, and we’ve had over the last 20 years, the
Republican Governors, Independence Party Govenror, who themselves and who appointed people who
didn’t believe in government. So they run on the ideology that government does everything
badly, and if they’re elected they go out to prove themselves correct. And they defund
the programs, they destroy ‘em, they come back, “See, we’ve made government worse,
so re-elect us and we’ll make it worse again.” I want to make government better. I believe
in government, I believe in public service. I believe we need to make it better, and I
think we engage people by enlisting them in the exercises of improving government, streamlining,
and making it more responsive to the needs of people. Rick Kupchella: All right, Mr.
Dayton, all of you gentlemen, I want thank you very much. We are out of time. A couple
of final notes here, very quickly again. On behalf of our sponsors we would like to thank
the Citizens League and the Lead Project, the employees and many volunteers who have
helped make tonight happen. Also, I’m Rick Kupchella, remember, you can also follow this
race on radio, throughout this state, Bring Me the News, now broadcast a couple thousand
times a month throughout Minnesota. You can find recaps of tonight’s program and follow
the best ongoing coverage of this election from all over the country at bringmethenews.com.
Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking the candidates here this evening. (audience
applauds). Tom Emmer: Thanks Rick. Rick Kupchella: An hour. Holy man. Tom Honrer:
Very nice Rick, thank you. Rick Kucphella: Thank you. We’re gonna have you stick around.
We’re gonna have you stick around because we’re going to, we’re going to talk, we’re
going to take 15 minutes Rick Kupchella: I’m looking for anybody who has a question
for any of these candidates. We’ll just go right to you. This is off of, we’re gonna
go right here, close to me sir, with the Horner button on. Go right ahead Mr. Shardon? Give
me your name, tell me if you’re with anybody in particular, and what’s your question.
Audience Member: My name is Mike Shardon and I am supporting Tom Horner for Governor.
My question is to the three candidates. What is your take on English as Minnesota’s official
language? Rick Kupchella: Mr. Emmer: Tom Emmer: I think English should be the official
language in the state of Minnesota. Tom Horner: I think anybody who wants a limited
role for government should not think that English ought to be mandated and that we ought
to require it. 1:02:08 (audience applauds) And so I agree with the business community
that has opposed this. I think we need to be a community that says “Yes we need to
have strong laws. We need to make sure the laws are enforced. But walk down Lake Street.
Walk down University Avenue. Walk down Payne and Arcade. And look at what new Minnesotans
have brought to our community. Let’s celebrate that. (audience applauds) Mark Dayton: Well
said. (audience laughs, applauds) Rick Kupchella: Maam, tell me your name, if you’re with
anybody, and what your question is. Audience Member: My name is Fran Davis and I’m with
the Minnesota Association of Realtors. And I’d like to ask Representative Emmer what
he is going to do differently than Governor Pawlenty. Rick Kupchella: Mr. Emmer, specifically,
what are you going to do any differently than Governor Pawlenty? Tom Emmer: Well, several
things. First, I’m not Governor Pawlenty. And I don’t think anybody here is. People
like to point backwards and try to assess blame. Y’know, the environment we’ve been
in, Governor Pawlenty has frankly been left to stop bad things from happening. Multibillion
dollar tax increases. We don’t agree though with everything that everybody does. You and
I are not going to agree 100% on every issue. How would I be different? We're talking about
changing the way government operates, number one. You got 22 Cabinet positions, I think
it should be six. I think you should set goals for a four-year term and you should evaluate
them on the half-year basis and the annual basis to make sure that you’re accomplishing
your goal of making government more efficient, eliminating all the redundancies, the bloat,
the excess. But then where would I be different? I think you gotta be absolutely aggressive
about creating a business a business-friendly environment in the state of Minnesota. I put
out the specifics on that. I’ve talked about how you need to lower the corporate income
tax that you can put more money in business pockets to start making capital investments
again and hiring people. I’ve talked about how you create an opportunity for small businesses
to do the same thing. The idea is to get the economic engine going. And then the way I’d
be different from the gentlemen up here is that I will stick my chin out and be willing
to have you say “I disagree with you Tom.” Rick Kupchella: So what is – Mr. Emmer
– Tom Emmer: I will tell you exactly where we’re coming from Rick Kupchella:
What was, what was Mr. Pawlenty’s, Governor Pawlenty’s worst idea? What was his worst
idea? What was his worst? Tom Emmer: Are you – Rick Kupchella: I’m asking Mr.
Emmer. Tom Emmer: I’m not here running against Tim Pawlenty. Rick Kupchella: Okay.
(laughs) (audience applauds) Sir, your name, who you’re with, and your question please.
Audience Member: Lawrence Resitar, and I’m with not with anybody. But you all have talked
at length tonight about changing the the business landscape or creating a better business landscape
for job development. What specific regulations or agencies would you change, get rid of,
combine in order to facilitate that change in Minnesota? To keep the Minnesota economy,
or get it back on track? Rick Kupchella: Specifically. Mr. Dayton. Mark Dayton: Well,
you know when I ran, and most people have forgotten, and understandably, for Governor
in 1998, I’ve said the second session should be what I called the Unsession. Where we’re
undoing. It’s not just a single, you know, it depends on your business, it depends on
the area of your state, it depends on, you know. So I would say it needs to be across
the board. And I wouldn’t wait that long given the situation now where you’ve got
individuals and nonprofits and businesses and local governments afflicted by multiple
jurisdictions of state agencies. Non-responsive state agencies for some of the reasons that
I described at the end of our previous conversation. And I would, I’ve asked my running mate
Yvonne Prettner Solon who’s been involved in some of this before to head a task force
that she’s started now. We’re going through what’s been done by the last couple of legislative
sessions. And we’re gong to take that forward and I would like the Legislature, typically
over the first six weeks has a lot of spare time, to focus on this first and foremost
while we’re waiting for the budget projections and the like. And if I could wave a magic
wand believe me I would eliminate the duplication the triplication of reporting requirements,
of overlapping jurisdictions of agencies, I say there ought to be one agency with jurisdiction
in most cases, and the other agencies should step aside so there’s one decision maker.
You’ve gotta set deadlines, they need to make those deadlines or they lose the opportunity
to regulate and to get people individually and collectively in government responsive,
accountable, and and take away a lot of the time and effort and expense that everybody
is subjected to with all these layers of government and all the overlapping. Rick Kupchella:
Mr. Horner. Tom Horner: Well I think we can eliminate some of the redundancy, but
depending on who’s counting there’s something between five and seen agencies that have oversight
on permits involving water. So we ought to to streamline that, and I agree with all of
that. But look, that’s the tactics of economic development. We need to be focused on the
strategies. We need to be focused on the long-term. And I disagree with my colleagues. I think
the next Governor cannot be satisfied with two-year goals, with four-year goals. We don’t
change high school graduation rates and measure them over four years, we measure them over
twelve years. And we better be prepared to do that. So in economic development I do believe
that we need to invest in what is our distinctive advantage: the talent pool. That means we
do need to invest in higher education including our two-year schools, vo-tech and community
colleges. Integrate them into the local businesses. Make them part of leveraging the regional
economic assets that we have in Minnesota. I believe we need to invest in research at
the two- and four-year schools. To make sure that we’re the leader in both basic and
applied research. Look, I was out yesterday at a great company, called Recon Robotics.
A device that was created out of research from the engineering school at the University
of Minnesota. A terrific device that provides law enforcement military with a robot that
can go in and look in at unsecured areas without putting personnel lives at risk. A device
created by the University of Minnesota privatized in a Minnesota company, manufactured in a
company down in Winona, and when they go public, when they sell, it’s going to produce revenue
for the University of Minnesota. It’s those kinds of things, it’s life science, it’s
making sure that we have a good K-12 system, it’s making sure that we have an infrastructure.
It’s not just cutting taxes and cutting away government. That’s not the economy
that exists and it’s not how Minnesota’s going to compete. Rick Kupchella: Okay. (audience
applauds) Tom Emmer: There you go again. There you go again. And I, I’m sorry, but
I haven’t made my career working with government or in government. I’ve been outside struggling
to run a small business and raise a family. And when I hear people that have had this
culture instilled in them, they talk about “We must invest, We must invest, We must
invest,” it is not government’s obligation to make investments for me. It’s not government’s
obligation to make investments for you. Government has specific core functions that it must start
to provide. You must identify those core functions, you must absolutely fund them, but investment
is creating a business environment. And, in the the one thing that will be agreed upon,
that you have so many agencies right now with overlapping jurisdiction. They not only have
overlapping jurisdiction, that they all have the ability to create new rules that you and
I must live under. And then they compete for the right to enforce compliance with those
rules. That’s what must change. Minnesota must become a one-window stop for new business,
new opportunity coming to this state. Because you can talk investment all you want. But
if you are not growing jobs in the private sector, if you are not creating new opportunities
in Minnesota, the next 3M, the next Medtronic, the next Control Data, if you are not doing
that you don’t have anything to talk about when it comes to investment. Rick Kupchella:
Okay. (audience applauds) We’re gonna do five more minutes, guys. If you could help
me out here we’re looking for just like one minute answers. We’re gonna be really
quick here. Okay. I got an education question. Sir, your name and who you’re with. Audience
Member: John Ordner, not with anybody. Just want to know, what’s the one item that you
guys would cut in education besides – well, what you would change in education besides
throwing money at it. Seems that over the last 30 years the education budget continues
to grow. And the quality continues to decline. Rick Kupchella: So it’s what is the one thing
you would – Audience Member: What is the one thing you would do to education besides
spend more money to improve the quality Rick Kupchella: Non-monetary solution. What would
you do. Mr. Emmer. Tom Emmer: Well, we’ve proposed a budget that actually holds K-12
harmless. We’ve increased it by 500 million with this federal money that’s coming in
for the next biennium. So 13.8 billion dollars. And what we’re talking about is we’re
talking about measuring our progress, rewarding progress, recording progress. It’s got to
be about the results. So it’s not so much the money that’s going in it even though
we’re talking about protecting it. But it’s making sure that those resources get allocated
efficiently and that we can start to measure our children’s performance. ‘Cause that
ultimately is the issue. If throwing more money is ultimately Rick Kupchella: Socrates! Tom
Emmer: Rick! Did you say 10 minutes? Did you say 10 minutes? Rick Kupchella: I said we
had 5 total. We were going for a minute apiece. Tom Emmer: I’ll finish. if throwing more
money at the problem were the answer then Washington DC would have the best school,
public school system in the country. And it does not. 1:12:00 (audience applauds) Rick
Kupchella: Mr. Horner. One minute Tom Horner: Okay, so let me just use the first part of
my one minute to cite the irony of a guy who’s held public office for the last 16 years,
saying that the guy who’s running for his first elective office is the captive of the
political system. So what we need to do to education. First of all I think we do need
to invest in early childhood learning. We need to make sure that every child is coming
into kindergarten prepared for success and I have new money in my budget for that. Secondly
we have all of the rules and procedures and laws under the 2009 legislation to change
Minnesota’s education system, to reform it. We let teachers teach, we put teachers
in charge of the classroom, against standards, against accountability. But we trust the teachers
for their instructional expertise, not just their content expertise. Rick Kupchella:
Mr. Dayton. Tom Horner: Thirdly, we get really good principals, we go out and recruit them,
we train them, we give them support and we put principals in charge of the schools. Now
if you have kids coming into school ready for success, you have teachers who are charged
with the responsibility of teaching, and you have principals who know how to run a good
school, you just need one more thing. And that is you need to get Education Minnesota
to the table. And say “Look, we’ve got to change the seniority rules. (audience applauds)
We need to make sure that we have the best teachers in the classroom, not just the most
senior teachers.” Rick Kupchella: Mr. Dayton, you have anything to add there? Mark Dayton:
Well, as someone who taught in a public school in New York City, I know one bad teacher ruins
a classroom and one bad principal ruins a school. So we need to be able to get rid of
bad teachers. We need to be able to get rid of bad principals. And we need to empower
the vast majority, of really excellent teachers and excellent principals to be successful.
By contrary to the premise the fact being we’ve cut per pupil in state aid by 1300
dollars in real after inflation dollars. And that’s had a drastic effect on the quality
of education in this state. Rick Kupchella: Okay, one more question. Maam, you name and
if you’re with anybody in particular and what your question is. Audience Member: Rose
Nevels Williams with Minneapolis Bailout Coalition. Rick Kupchella: Okay, and what is your question.
The Minneapolis Bailout Coalition? What is that maam? Audience Member: We’ve been
dealing with issues around housing, foreclosure et cetera. Rick Kupchella: Okay, and your
question? Audience Member: I’m going to get real specific. With thirty-some percent
of African American students in the city of Minneapolis graduating from high school, and
the incarceration rate is greater than that, we’ve closed all our inner city urban schools
almost, Clinton Elementary, I know Mr. Dayton you’re familiar with that, Warrington, Bryant
Jr. High School, the historic Central, and now the horrible issue of North High School
now being closed. What are we going to do to really address, address this in our community,
African American students are not even graduating from high school, let alone feeding into the
state colleges and universities. And I know we don’t want all our kids incarcerated.
What are we going to do with that piece? Mark Dayton: Early childhood education. Come ready
to K, ready to learn. All-day kindergarten, we’re one of the relatively few states that
does not provide state funding for the option of all-day kindergarten for parents and their
kids. And then smaller class sizes, diagnostic testing at the beginning of the year, identify
kids reading below grade level, individual/small group attention during that time to shore
up those children stay in school all year to improve 85% of them to the reading above
grade level by the end of second, third, fourth grade, which is life transforming. Those are
some of the strategies in a brief amount of time. Tom Horner: Well, I think again, I
mean I would (audience applauds Dayton) Tom Horner: (to Dayton) You’re due your applause,
I’ll let them. I agree with Senator Dayton. I think we do have to make an investment in
early childhood learning. And I put new money in there. But as much as Senator Dayton and
Representative Emmer mock my focus on redesign, this is a perfect example. Because I've been
talking since the beginning of my campaign that this also is an opportunity to look at
the sliding scale childcare resources and figure out a lot of these this these dollars
serve the same population. Let’s take a dollar here and a dollar here and maybe by
combining the two it adds up to three dollars worth of value without spending three dollars
of taxpayer money. I think it’s things like that. But I’ll also say, and I think we
have to acknowledge this, that we are never going to change this dynamic unless we get
families engaged, unless we get the communities involved to participate with us in making
changes. We have to change the culture. We have thousands of kids in Minnesota, in the
Twin Cities that aren’t even attending school. That are abandoning school. We have unmotivated
students. We’ve got to figure out a whole redesign of education that pulls those kids
back in, that holds the community and parents responsible for making sure it that they're
contributing to their kids' education. (audience applauds) Tom Emmer: You know I I've outlined
it specifically and I did so in a speech that I gave. It’s about making sure that you
take care of early childhood education, more focused, make sure that they're not just babysitting
options, that you prepare our kids. Literacy should be the goal so they’re ready once
they get to K-12. But then it should also be empowering our educators to make sure that
the resources they have get used the way they believe they’ll get the most benefited.
It is frankly unacceptable that we have not attacked the achievement gap. But all I would
say to my colleagues up here is it's great to talk about the new money that we have.
But you've got to give Minnesota a balanced budget and tell ‘em where else you're going
to cut ‘cause you’re 3 billion dollars short and you’re about 2.5 billion dollars
short. Hopefully by the time we get to get to November second you will have explained
to the state of Minnesota not just the wonderful things that you want to invest in but where
you actually are going to cut. Whether that's the judiciary or that's public safety or that’s
LGA or some other area. Hopefully you will do what we’ve done. And I put the challenge
out, put an actual complete balanced budget out for Minnesota to see. Mark Dayton: Well
– Tom Emmer: What you’re going to do. (audience applause) Mark Dayton: Well Representative
Emmer, all I can say with all due respect, for somebody who’s only had a budget for
24 hours, you’re you’re really kind of getting pretty carried away with it. (audience
laughs) But I accept the challenge. Tom Emmer: Good. Rick Kupchella: All right. Gentlemen,
thank you guys again for joining us here, we really do appreciate it. (audience applause)
Thank you guys for turning out. Awesome! The party is next door at seven. Please join us! (Candidates
thank, congratulate each other)