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Shaun: Hello, how are you today?
Roxanne: Good. How are you today?
Shaun: I’m good, very good.
Shaun: Ah.. I think you’re just out of the shot there Roxanne.
Roxanne: What’s that?
Shaun: Oh, I think your just out of the shot. …out of the webcam.
Roxanne: Yeah. I don’t know if you need me in the shot. It’s a bit crowded tryna get two people…
Shaun: Ah, that's fair enough okay.
Shaun: So, erm. I'll just jump right in.
Roxanne: Can You hear? No, you Can’t hear a thing can you?
No, he’s having trouble with his accent.
Shaun: Oh, I'm sorry.
Roxanne: Yeah, yeah.
We'll have to do that.
Roxanne: Do you want to start with the first question?
Hang on wait, let me put your voice up a little louder so
Roxanne: Can you hear?
Can you hear? All right...
Well he's not saying anything right now. Go ahead.
erm. The first question I would like to as is
'In reading some of your past newspaper articles it
It suggests that Jacque has achieved a
a doctorate degree at Sierra University, California.
Could you describe your experiences there?
Specifically, could you describe how these experiences shaped your view of society?
Jacque: I taught psychology and human behaviour.
Roxanne: And he wants to know how
Describe your experience there.
Jacque: I taught there, I did not learn there. Shaun: Oh, okay.
Roxanne: Could you describe how these experiences shaped your view of society?
Fresco: Teaching did not shape my views.
Shaun: oh, okay.
that's pretty specific.
erm. I'll just jump into question number two then.
I'm aware that Jacque was once a member of the technocracy group
Could you define in your own words how their philosophy for social change differs from your philosophy for social change?
Roxanne: [Coughs] How does technocracy's philosophy for social change differ from yours?
Fresco: They had no blue prints.
They claimed they had blue prints for the new society.
There were no blueprints that I found.
They also had no 'blacks' in the organisation.
I asked Scott, how come there were no black?
Howard Scott was the chief engineer.
He said let them start their own section.
that bothered my
Then I asked him, how come there were no orientals?
He said the oriental mind can't grasp technology
This was er..
60 years ago.
and I said you were wrong.
Today, they lead the world in robotics.
Roxanne: Probably more than like 70 year ago.
Jacque: So I resigned because.. Roxanne: Yeah..
I could not support the segregation of people.
and how Scotts view of oriental or black starting their own section.
Roxanne: Also they never had a good understanding of hum,
behavioural. Why people behave the way they do.
Fresco: that's true.
Shaun: Oh, okay.
Roxanne: Jacque took that much further.
Roxanne: An' he also..
He also delved into so many more aspects of..
Roxanne: ..human behavour Fresco: ..Social design.
Roxanne: and social design.
...and why we behave the way we do.
How to make people creative, how to teach kids... he really went into
specifics were, erm, technocracy did not.
Shaun: Oh, okay.
Would you say that 'technocracy' was not 'humanistic'?
but Jacques view was?
Roxanne: would you say that technocracy was not humanistic but your view is?
Fresco: No, I would say that they would not have an adequate view.
...of how to change people.
Hmm, that's, hmm, thats great. I'll just move on to question number three..
Roxanne: Can I.. ?
Clarify that? do you.. would you say that your view is humanistic?
Jacque: I said no.
Roxanne: Yeah, I never knew if that was specific enough.
You wouldn't.. you wouldn't call his view particularly humanistic.
'Is it true that Jacque travelled to China, prior to 2010?
And erm, what is Jacques view of the Chinese political-economy?'
Roxanne: Did you travel to china before your world lecture tour
..in 2010? Fresco: Yes.
Shaun: What did you think of the society there? The role of politics and the role economics...
...in that society. do you think it was 'good' or..?
Fresco: I dislike politics intensely.
Because politicians say things people like to hear but they dont offer anything.
They have no way out of a problem.
Jacque: When I asked politicians how can you prevent war..
They said 'I don't know' [???] 'There's always been war there always will be war'.
and how do you grow more food?
...to feed people?
'I dont know', how do you make trains and boats and transportation safer?
'I don't know.'
I said, 'What are you doing in politics?'
Roxanne: He's asking about Chinese politics specifically.
Chinese politics is the same as any other.
Politics, its preferential advantage for a selective few.
This is great. Okay, I'll just go onto question number four...
'In your 2002 text, The Best That Money Can't buy, you claim that your alternative vision is 'beyond politics'...
...as we have just discussed...
Some may argue that the 'scientific method' that you advocate in the book, is paradoxically a political stance in itself...
How would you address that argument?
You claim that, Beyond Politics, Poverty and War, The best that Money Can't Buy, that its beyond politics...
However, some may argue that the scientific method that you advocate in your book is paradoxically a political stance
Jacque: I'm sorry about that interpretation, but they are not correct.
Shaun: Oh, okay.
Could you elaborate, how they are not correct?
Roxanne: could you elaborate on how they are not correct?
erm. Politicians say things people like to hear.
Years ago, people believed the earth was flat.
Scientists did not say, its a little flat and a little round, to get along with people.
They said, 'Your wrong'.
'We have evidence' and they showed their evidence to
show that the earth was round.
Politicians do not say 'believe me, we have the strongest metal here. They give the torsional strength, the tensile strength..
...and the compression strength, and they give information. Not opinions.
Shaun: Alright, okay. That is very clear. Thankyou. Erm...
Question number five..
In your text, The Venus Project: The Re-Design of Culture, you state that the project is '...dedicated to human and environmental concerns'.
Specifically, could you define what this means?
Jacque: Yes. Do not dump toxic materials into the oceans and rivers, it will kill fish and eventually people..
and stop our fishing fleet from bringing in nutritious food.
...and we will have fish farms on the land and in the sea to meet nutritional needs.
Its very different. Political systems..
do not describe how to grow food, how to house people, how to make transportation safe.
They do not describe those things.
They merely talk of a better world with words, but no description, no drawings... Shaun: okay.
Shaun: Would you define that as the basic human needs then?
Like food, shelter, like...
...erm. Maslows Triangle almost?
Jacque: Free education, no fee involved.
Roxanne: Would you define that as food, shelter, housing erm? Like.. who was his name?
Shaun: Paslovs Triangle.
Shaun: ...I think it was... Roxanne: Paslovs Triangle, was that his name? Fresco: No..
Shaun: Sorry I can't remember who it was now.
Roxanne: [???] Shaun: Its like the pyramid of all the social needs that people need such as love and that sort of thing.. Jacque: Yes..
...and they are met like the public library.
You can go the library and get any book you want.
Next door to the library we have the camera centre. Were you can check out a camera, just like you can check out a [???] just like the library..
next door to that..
We have musical instruments...
If you make things available to people on the check out system like the library there's no basis for crime.
Shaun: Oh, okay. So, erm, you wanna provide all education and shelter and food and all the necessities of life?
Jacque: Without a price tag.
Jacque: ..without a price tag.
Shaun: Cool, I've got it. That's great I'll move on to... Jacque: [...] Shaun: Oh, sorry?
Jacque: If you use money you can pay off politicians, we don't use money. We make things available to people.
er. I'll just move on to question number six.
Erm, these questions. The next three questions are concerning 'crime' and 'criminality'...
Is it true... Is it true that you believe all behaviour is culturally defined? If so,...
How do you explain issues such as 'criminality'? For example, do you believe is 'criminality' is genetically determined, or..
..culturally defined or a mix of the two factors?
Roxanne: Is it true that you believe all behaviour is culturally defined? Jacque: Yes.
Roxanne: If so, can you explain issue such as 'criminality'.
Jacque: 'Criminality' is made by scarcity.
If you have two children, and you play with this four year old and neglect the seven year old your making jealousy and envy..
If you have two children and you say you can go the movies to one and you have to do your homework to the other, your making jealousy and envy.
Its manufactured by culture.
All criminal behaviour is made by scarcity.
... or threat of scarcity.
... or fear of scarcity.
Shaun: Okay. Erm, so do you not believe that genetics plays any role in defining 'crime' ?
Jacque: Genetics has a role. It has to do with the colour of the eyes, the gene colour of the eyes, the shape of the head and maybe a propensity towards heart disease and...
...and other things. But other than that, every word you use is taught (to) you; "cup" "house" "building" "mumma" "pappa"
every words you use, every facial expression, occurs inn your movies, your books your novels..
..your role models. So, I don't see any individuality.
If you were brought up as a baby, in Australia, never saw anything else you would say; "how ar' ya' mate?"
Shaun: [Laughs] That true.
Roxanne: Do you believe 'criminality' is genetically determined?
Jacque: No its not. And in those cases were it is determined by brain damage I would say that they don't belong in jail...
..they belong in a hospital and to be treated for that disorder.
The same with aberrant behaviour...
..it could be treated. Just as we are shaped by culture, it could be unshaped by culture.
Roxanne: Its a real cop-out to blame it on the genes.
...and to not look at society because of it.
Jacque: they have been looking for the republican gene recently.
...which is stupid... Shaun: Yeah..
Jacque: Actually, a republican is raised in a republican environment. You wannabe an air-plane pilot you go to an aviation
.. environment. You wanna be doctor you go to medical environment. This is how you learn.
Your not born anyway. Chinese baby was never born speaking Chinese. No mater how many centuries their ancestors spoke Chinese...
they had to learn all over again.. That's why I accept environment.
I never saw any evidence of an American speaking English without being trained.
..to do so.
Shaun: Sounds good. So how would you define 'crime' in your own words?
...Like, explicitly how would you define it?
Roxanne: How would you define 'crime' and 'criminality'?
Jacque: Threat of scarcity, fear of scarcity, in ability to access their needs.
Shaun: Okay. So , In your own way, how would you address this issue of 'crime' and 'criminality' in your alternative vision?
Jacque: I would make the public library available with all things all the necessities of life would be available..
at the library, if we don't have an abundance, if your through using it you can bring it back to the library.
Roxanne: Also, giving people the tools to learn and look at the world and communicate more so with one another.
Jacque: Our language was designed hundreds of years ago.
So we don't communicate with each other...we talk at each other..
and it goes through their head and out of their relation to their background.. Although you think your talking to people, your not..
we're.. [coughs] ...
When an individual reads the bible he says this is what Jesus meant, the second persons says 'wrong, he meant that' ...
The third person says, 'your both wrong' so you have the [???]..
the seventh day adventist, the Catholics, because its subject to interpretation all langue is subject to interpretation. We don't want that..
We want a scientific language, when scientists and engineers talk to each other about air-plane structures they talk in mathematical terms. They understand each other...
Otherwise you couldn't build air-planes, submarines, aircraft carriers or boats.
Shaun: So, erm, if you.. Do you believe that if we have a scientific language we will be able to challenge 'crime' and 'criminality'?
Jacque: There wont be any crime, because you would raise children differently..
than they are raised today, this is a kinda of ego centric society where children meet each other and say, 'hey...
..you! I can run faster than you! I bet I can fight you!' They are all aggression. They are never brought up in a co-operative system.
Roxanne: Crime is really a by-product of the inefficiencies of the culture.
..that people are raised under.. Jacque: Yeah..
Roxanne: Not, the person Shaun: Okay.
Shaun: Fantastic. This is great, I'll just move onto question number nine. And, in the transcript to this interview..
there is an extract provided by Karl Popper, 1966, page 165.
Erm, Jacque, how would you contrast your 'alternative vision' to that of Popper definition of the 'Utopian Engineer'.
Roxanne: Do you want to read this or do you remember it.. Jacque: I'm not a 'Utopian'...
Jacque: I do not believe that we can design the ideal society. I believe that we can design a much better society.
...I dont believe man is capable of making the best laptop, because what ever you make it is the best you know of up to now.
...but ten years from now, it will be smaller, lighter and do much more. There are no final frontiers.
Roxanne: This, this person is kind of saying you can't design rationally the whole society...
..."what I criticise under the name of the 'utopian engineering', erm, recommends the..." excuse me..
"...the reconstruction of society as whole. I.E) very sweeping changes whose practical consequences are hard to calculate owning to our limited experiences. It claims.. "
Jacque: I get it. I can answer that..
"due to limited experience" he should say, 'I don't know enough about human behaviour to engineer an environment to do away with crime'.
that's the way you talk, you don't say 'You'll never be able to fly'.
'I cant conceive of how to build a flying machine' that the way you talk. 'You think man will ever get to the moon?' I asked a lot of people..
they said, 'not in a thousand year!'. I said, 'have you studied rockets?', 'no'. 'Have you studied space travel?', 'no'. How do you come to that conclusion?
Cause they were brought up to believe that everyone should have aright to their own opinions. I'm against that.
Everyone should have access to information, not their own opinion.
Roxanne: This person is talking about their own inadequacies. Shaun: ahum.
Roxanne: Not, whats possible.
If you were honest, he's say, 'I don't know how to build a flying machine'. Not, 'man will never fly'.
Thats an opinion. Shaun: That's fantastic.
Jacque: People don't even know how to talk to each other.
Shaun: Hmm, cool.
Erm. this is great, this is all the questions that I wanted to ask yourself and Roxanne. This is really good. Erm..
Can I just thankyou for the inopportune that you have given me to interview the two of you, I very much appreciate it.
Good luck with your project, Let us know how it turns out.
Shaun: Oh, will do.
Shaun: Thanks again, thanks very much.
Roxanne: Okay. Shaun: Good bye.
Don't forget our language was designed hundred of years ago. And its old words with old meaning.
Different people, have different association with the same words.
Shaun: I will take that away with me.
With don't have any basis of good communication except for mathematics or the sciences or chemistry.
When a chemist writes a formula, anywhere in the worlds they understand them, they are its not subject to interpretation.
Roxanne: you should look at semantics too, with regards to the meaning of words, I don't know if they did that at school..
Shaun: oh like the 'Tranny of Words', like that book? Are you advocating a.. are you trying to say that we should leave all 'abstract' words and only use clear 'referents'?
Jacque: Yes, We need much more emphasis on semantics and communication.
Roxanne: He's saying, do we eliminate 'abstract' words and only use clear referential.. Jacque: Yes.. yes...
Shaun: oh, okay. And that will help, erm.. help challenge criminality?
Fresco: Well, it would do away with arguments, 'cause.. [???] they would have to look into it to give you an answer..
He doesn't give an answer right away.
he says, 'I dont know'.
Roxanne: If you make things available, that's the end of stealing, that's the end of jealousy, that's the end of ego in certain aspects in regards to that..
Shaun: Oh, okay.
erm, as just one final question as well. This is just a personal that i would like to ask Jacque, as was aware that you were a vegetarian..
at one point. Could you tell me why you stopped being vegetarian?
Jacque: Well, since I saw cows with cancer and rabbits with cancer they are all vegetarians.
Shaun: Oh, and you think that has the same effect on the human body?
Jacque: I've never anything to evidence that vegetarianism or organic food, reduces the amount of cancer.
I've read about it but I've never seen proof of it. I don't know.
Shaun: Fair enough. I'll take that with me.
Roxanne: there's a lot of science that has to be done without the monetary system that hasn' ... really, humm, Roxanne & Jacque: [???]
Jacque: Or invested interests. Roxanne: Yeah, invading the outcome of some science.
Roxanne: Jacque does stay away from some red meats and things like that.. we do eat organic so [Laughts]..
..you know, there's a lot poisons on it. Jacque: We spray poisons on all plants today. We shouldn't do that we oughta use high pitched sound to keep certain...
insects away.. but certain insects are useful for plants.
we have to learn how to use ultra sonic methods for support the insect population around plants..
not, spraying poison. [coughs]
Shaun: Yeah. Roxanne: Water?
Shaun: Well, this is great, this is really good for my final dissertation. So, I would just like to thank you again. I really do appreciate this opportunity.
Roxanne: Okay, Shaun. Shaun: Thankyou, goodbye.
Roxanne: Goodbye. Jacque: Thankyou very much for the opportunity.