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Vishna, your video is not there
Just a second, I will check it out
so how is everybody tonight?
Fine. How about you? Yeah, fine.
Thanks for coming online.
I believe last time both of you are not there, right?
Oh yeah, Saleh was not there as he was in hiding mode. This is Sathish.
You can introduce yourself? Hi Vishna
This is Raj from Sri Lanka
This is Saleh from Singapore
One second, I am reviewing the questions...
Okay, before that, maybe we can do a test
Before that, let's do a test on this video first
on the quality of the video first
actually, this google hangout here will automatically post to youtube.
So Ranga, it's better to send me the link.
the youtube link, and I will check
Wait arr, i' will just check. It is live actually.
Send me the link
Yeah, it's working man. It is already live now.
Vishwa, Nadaraj, we are waiting for George also.
We are waiting for George. Okay, no problem
Let's not have Vishwa waiting for us.
I think George is coming online now.
Okay, we think George will come online now. Okay, we start.
Hello, welcome everyone. We have here Vishna Patil.
He is the MD of Patil 2.0
He is the expert system in agriculture domain.
He will be the domain expert.
We have Saleh, Nadaraj and myself Shriranga. George will join us soon.
Hello Vishna. Thank you for joining us here.
So shall we start with the first question.
Do you think, there is a need of an expert system in the fruit cultivation, or in general crop cultivation industry/domain?
Yeah, certainly I think there is a need for such a system.
Especially for a country like us.
We have many small farmers where the farm is pretty small.
And, we do have agricultural experts.
very few agriculturist expert
to get up to date knowledge and as well as solving their problems
will be really a handy tool to increase
the productivity of the farms
Satish you are noting down the points? Okay will note down the points if really need to
Yeah, thank you. My next question would be.
What is the normal usage of expert system in the field of agriculture today and its future prospects?
If you asks me what is the normal usages... It is mainly use
to solve a particular problem of a particular crop.
and what is the expert system and what is the fruit expert system.
on one fruit at a time.
and a majority of the expert system we have seen like most
of them focus either on
on main thing and the others surround them with it. For an example say for like example
diagnosis. For me, diagnosis is a major part of the system.
whereas another thing we have for a particular
on what is the best price and where to sow and all those
that is the present system of a normal usage of the expert system.
There are other usage of the system as well. These are the main things which I
If you look at future thing. Say for example if you want
to know what is the future prospects of a
expert system, the most important thing is we should be able to
have dynamic knowledge bases.
Presently most of the system that has been used, especially so in this area for what
we have investigated, more or else the knowledge
is static, although you can update
in the knowledgebase via
some webreference and all but still
there should be a human who is intervening
and he should again get the data from some other place.
now think like that in large sector of agriculture
how could you collect the data? Normally, these people cannot collect data itself
getting the data, capturing that data, and then analyzing that data
on a regular basis is a very difficult job
if we are able to automate this process
and keep the databases dynamic, up to date, which may involve some
other secondary system or like sensor base system
that will get you the data or some other analyzer that will get you
analyzing the incoming data and then it is like each
is coming from an AI like system
like updating the knowledge base. I feel that is
a tremendous area of opportunity that is present
especially for a country where 70% of the country where the GDP is based on agriculture
so as it is a developing field, so in the future there is prospect, as you mentioned.
yeah, i feel 60 to 70 % of India are into the field of agriculture
Vishna, I have one question. Instead of the
with out the intervening of the human, how can we trust the system if it is kinda of
wikipedia, anybody can update the notes
then how can we trust the system
that is a very good question. It is like when we are working on
the system recently, when we try to get the data from the network or part of the network
it is not like we will update the problem to the database
what we face when we met the agriculturist, is the gathering of
the data. That is the challenge.
that is number 1. Second is analyzing the data.
Third is updating the data.
Now, if gathering of the data, analyzing the data happens.
and we will put it in a temporary
format at a particular place
then we will ask the experts to review it
then you can see the amount of changes. Say for example
the best temperature to grow a particular fruit is from this to this
we will look at the deviations.
if the deviations is normal, we will continue with the deviations. However if the deviations is not, we will review with the experts.
we are reducing the load of the experts by capturing the data, analyzing the data and just showing him the result
this knowledge input values, this change has happen
so he can view the result and say yes or no. So based on the aggregate level of experts, he can
for example asks the people from the region
if he send us an acknowledgement of some sort, that we will agree
and that will be able to reduce the load a lot
if we asks them to go thru the data, and update it.
or even if we can update it automatically, we can have some interactions with them. We can send them a mail.
with the analysis snapshots and with the graphs and all
then just the for a feedback, with one or two questions feedback.
then they will click and say yeah, it is done. So this is much easier
because for a domain expert like agriculturist, especially here
in India, for them, to use computers is a big headache
they will try to avoid it as much as possible
it is not in India, even for emerging countries, it is also a problem. So how much for us
we could automate the entire system, that would be easier
this is what i feel
ok thank you Vishna for the clarification. So for the next question
actually agriculture is a very vast area and it is of a diverse condition such as
deforestization to a green house agriculture.
is it feasible to implement an expert system based on the natural conditions alone such as soil nature, quality, wind,
Or is there a need to use artificial factors such as fertilizers,
innovative irrigation facilities or using very different technology
so to repeat my questions, is it feasible to implement and expert system domain based on the natural conditions or is there a need use artificial factors?
so you say climatic factors, you are saying soil conditions
all of these are necessary but these are all not sufficient enough
we need to look at the prospect of using fertilizers and we need to look at the prospect of using irigation facilities
and as well as the agricultural financial data also
because the reason why the farmer is into agricultural, into farming is to make money. It is to maximize the profit
so we need to look into the financial part of it, we need to look into the irigation facilities.
say for example, we would have come back from where we have done the study
it is totally rain fetch area like in Calcutta
in north area of our country
other than that again it depends on your target, which community, which country, which particular region you are doing
say for example when you have a sufficient water supply and all then you know like things change, for which crop, and for which area you are doing
all those things do really matter, those conditions that you have told, might be those things are okay to do.
But really it will really give it a punch, give it a push to your expert system if you can give other factors also, be it the fertilizers, crops or the land and as well as the irrigation, because as it will satisfy a lot of people.
Because if you don't do that, you are excluding certain parts of your audience. So personally, if I am doing, I will try to include that.
How important role the heuristic knowledge of the cultivation or agricultural sciences in general plays in designing, implementation and usage of an expert system in this domain?
I believe this is the most critical part, the most important part. Because after all, this is the core of your expert system.
Because after all, this experiential is the soul of the system and after all it differentiate your expert system with a simple database system.
So the core part of capturing the knowledge of the single expert or the multitude of the experts, then using that knowledge to reach to a part of a solution or to provide a solution to your audience, or to your people, then again is the farmers.
So that is the core of it, the heart of it to capture the heuristic knowledge. Otherwise it, the facts, will just be freely available on the internet where you would really like google on the internet and you could get most of the facts there.
There are 2 parts, the facts that will be stored on the database and as well as the heuristic data which will be stored on the knowledge based. So for creating this knowledge base, you will need to have access to this knowledge from the expert.
That is the most critical part of building any expert system. Ok Thank you for the clarification.
I have one question regarding the natural factors.
Based on the natural factors like soil, wind, water, temperature, can we categorize some fruit like some
fruits which are require solely more water or can we categorize some fruits dependent on water or some fruits which are only dependent on the amount of nitrogen in the soil.
Can we categorize thes fruit totally dependent on the soil as soild based fruit. Can we in general categorize or classify certain amount of fruits so that we can filter out or we can specify or do we have to consider some more things so that we can
group the fruits.
Ok, so again if you want to classify the fruits based on the climatic conditions or based on natural factors,
it will be better if you go on a combination of factors, say for example, a particular amount of soil with x amount of water,
would be suitable for a particular crop or a particular fruit. Say for a factor of level of humidity, some things will grow.
So it would be better if you go for a combination of factors.
Most of the factors which you told are good enough, but if you include something like humidity,
especially those humidity which is around by those plant and those soil moisture. Moisture that contains in the atmosphere and moisture contain in the soil.
Again these are just some factors, if you consider temperature and all and subfactors, you can consider.
So it would be great if you say you use a combination of factors rather than saying in water, this grows.
With this kind of soil, with this kind of water, with this kind of temperature, these fruits are preferred.
This would be enough I feel for you to categorize this most type of fruits.
Moving on to the artificial factor, how
can the usage of fertilization / irrigation / human labout
texture of soil / size and shape of the cultivation land, can affect or effect the fruit cultivation decision.
From the artificial perspectives, what are your thoughts?
Are fertilizers required? It is essential to growth.
There is hardly any modern agricultural practises
agricultural which does not need fertilizers
even if the economy is backward, everybody uses fertilizers.
Fertilizers must pack in today's world.
So you need to have it. So again irrigation is also something that you need as we have discussed
in previous points. Irrigation also
certainly required due to the erratic wind condition
which is happening. As you can see that rain are coming at time
when it should not be happening. This has been happening through out the globe.
This is a global phenomenon. US is going through one of the worst heat conditions.
whereas in China and Philippines and all, floods are happening.
Rains in India are moving away like 2 months.
Total of 2 months that have been moved back.
So there are alot of climatic conditions that are changing, so to balance out
these factors, you will need factors like fertilization
, irrigation, and as well as to provide other stuffs like pesticides, insecticides
So these things are required to balance out the effects of nature
as well as you are talking about the human labour, again we are talking about
our place, the field sizes are very small. That is why
that is why mechanization has never been taken off in our country. So that is why what we can do is
when field is very small, labour is predominantly used.
Hence, getting the labour and at what time matters a lot.
What we found out is that the biggest problem is the labour problem in our country.
We challenging part is we do not have a field that is large enough for mechanization nor do we have a labour at a competitive price.
Getting a human labour at a correct price and a correct time is paramount.
and as well as what you have is the size and shape of the cultivation land
so mechanization is not feasible in our country due to the size of the land, and so profitability will be less
and the size is better if we can mechanize
and use expert system and use other system
to offset the labour and increase the profitability
of this things. The shape of the cultvation land
as i just said that it is a factor, but it is not a significant factor.
if you have a decent big enough of land, you can engage the mowers to plough this big field itself.
There is also step based farming. And, there are a lot of ways
Shape of land matter and only if slope or gradient is high and all
and such condition is difficult for cropping. That is what I feel.
Ok, thank you for the details.
How would you verify on the availability of Water in the area? What is the minimum water quality required? Based on your expert opinion, is there a relationship between the quality of the water with the growth of the crops?
I do believe that there is a linkage between the water
availability and the growth of this plants
If you want to check the water availability, as a rule of thumb, look for areas which have canals or damps
so they don't have to provide you with sufficient water
resources. Do not go for cropping on places which are dry lands
In our country here, they may be growing and cultivation on dry land where they are totally dependent on rain
If you are talking about the quality of the water, I personally believe that quality water, flowing water
is better as it brings the minerals and as well as good soild
if you take water from under ground, the water is slightly not quality water
only when the water quality deteriorates quite a lot, then only you cannot farm
OK, thank you.
How much of an investment is required for disease or insect prevention? Should such investment be a major factor contributing to the consideration of growing crops in the area? Example apple or grapes cultivation?
requires a high level of maintenance compare to the guava or the banana.
Should such investment be a major factor contributing to the consideration of growing crops in the area?
I think there is some impact but I don't think that this is a major decision maker for me. Because, you see that a particular fruit needs high level of maintenance, the yield will also get you a better amount. For a farm, when I am making a decision, I would be looking at both input and output. If the input is high and the same time the output is higher, if I am going to get more money by selling that particular fruit, then surely why not. Go for that. And, that at the same time, the amount which you are going to put in for these insecticides and pesticides depends on which region you are from because there are certain insecticides that occur predominantly in a particular region, based on your climatic conditions. And as well as which crop and which fruit you are growing and what is the size of your farmland. Again, the size comes into picture, because the bigger the size, the bigger is the affected area and the bigger amount you are going to spend. So like I said there are many variable factors which you need to consider. This will be an important area but this will not be something that will change what I am going to do. At the same time, before planting those fruit plants what you can check is what are the predominant diseases which are happening in and around that particular area.
So you can just go to those nearby area to find out what are the output of similar kind of plantations and asks them what are the problems which they have faced and if possible, try to treat the plants those things when you are sowing it yourself. Take precautionary measures, so that the effect of those things whenever they occur, the insects or pests or something else, will be minimum.
So that way you will be like much better. OK, thank you. Nadaraj, Saleh, George, do you have any questions or any further clarifications required for the domain part of the expert system.
I have asked all my questions and would like to check with you guys. Hi Vishna, I have one question.
Yeah, please go ahead. Regarding that water availability, so I heard that fruit taste dependent on the water availability. Is it true? Some fruits need some dry
The thing is, say for example you are going for a mango tree and getting the mango fruit. If you have provide fertilization sufficiently and everything but water is not provided.
Then what happens is the basic photosynthesis process and as well as those things go haywire. At that time, the formation of the fruits, I mean there will be certain deficiencies which will creep into the plants itself. So let's say if the mango should be supposed to be somewhat sweet in the PH level and those things which you consider and the acidic level is less and it should be sweeter but then what happens is inherently you have not supply the main ingredient into the plant for it to take into its photosynthesis process and then what happens is everything gets retarded. 227 00:34:11,883 --> 00:34:34,1 So you know like when you get the mango fruit 4 to 5 years down the line, it will not be giving you the, what you can say, the optimum taste. In that sense, yield decreases significantly and even the taste also changes a little bit because it is not been given the main factor. The fruit is just a by product of photosynthesis.
If the process itself is not happening properly, then whatever result you are going to get out of it will not be optimum. What you can consider is that it will not be good enough.
That is what water and like where we have understood, where we are thinking about having irrigation facility and so we also have some questions to those agriculturists when we ask them as to whats the effect of water availability. How critical it is?
So sometimes at least when water is not available during the early years especially for fruit crops when water is not available, most of them will wither and die out. So even to that extent also, you know, it matters on the water availability.
We understand that photosynthesis based on sunlight. Apart from the greenhouse agriculture, for normal food cultivation, how important do you think that sunlight and the temperature of the surrounding area would affect the crops or the fruits?
For normal fruit cultivation, that you are telling, right? Again, sunlight is very important component, as you all know, without sunlight nothing happens. Adequate amount of sunlight provided at correct intervals of time, say like when that particular process happens, when the fruit creation process is about to start, when the flowers are about to bloom, from that time onwards, adequate amount of sunlight should be available. And at the same time, all the factors matter.
From temperature, to wind, to moisture, each of them play a very critical role. Say, for example the winds are quite high, then during the flowering stage itself, the flowers will flow down from the trees and that the yield will then decreases a lot. And at the same time, if the temperaturs is very high, it changes the moisture level, so whenever we talk about temperature it is more about moisture, the surrounding moisture which will help those leaves to carry out the photosynthesis process. The more temperature, the higher amount of water is absorbed through the leaves, so they have to carry out more photosynthesis.
So this put a strain on those plants, so that is why too much heat will also kills the plant because water supply will reduce that fact. So all of these factors are interlinked with one another. Say for example if the wind speed is high enough, it carries the moisture away from the plant.
So these factors mixed together, so will affect in some way or other way around. so that is why they say that the ideal temperature is, the ideal sunlight is, the ideal humidity is maintained around that. That is why these fruits is grown in a particular area, not everywhere. The soil, the temperature, the water, everything matters. That is why you have certain things that can be only grown in tropical climates, something that can be grown in hilly region.
When the temperature is very cold, so then apple can be grown only in places where it is quite cold. So each of these things matter a lot.
Thank you for that, Vishna. Concerning to the temperature, to the classify of the temperature, can we quantify the temperature? Because the variation of temperature matters for fruit cultivation, so can we quantify the temperature suppose to very low, low, medium, high and very high?
What is your thoughts on the temperature support, for our own calculation? In a crude way, what you can say is you can classify temperature like that, as to what I have just telling you that you know from medium to low temperature, apple can be grown better. For a medium temperature, mango can be grown better. So for that high temperature, for different types of fruits, so if you need to have that type of classification for building the expert system, it can be done.
If you need to specify some temperature ranges even if you say low, or medium, or high, you need to specify that. So with that kind of classification, I believe, it can be done.
One more thing that I want to check with you is on the soil type. Currently we have 3 factors, Soil type can be acidic, basic or neutral. And if the soil nature is good or it is not that good. Do you thing we need to add some more factors in the soil to determine the level of quality of the soil?
Or can the PH level of the soild can help to determine whether the soil quality is good for a certain fruits or not?
Certainly, you need to add some more features into the soil quality. PH is just one small factor. Apart from that, fertilization levels are again very important and npk levels and as well as other chemicals which are present. That is the important. The moisture holding capacity or the water holding capacity of the soil, again the type of soil, whether it is sandy, gloomy or something like that and it is based on that. If someone mentioned that it is a sandy soil, then it will be more grainy and how much water it can hold. so all these factors will come automatically around it.
So if you say clay, clay soil will become very hard, very soon. So whatever moisture is left in there, under sunlight, it will become hard enough and it will not be porous enough for roots to grow. So if you just have enough classification of soil, so it will be much more easier for a farmer to tell us to what kind of soil is there in his farmland. So based on that, you have to take in your software or in your application necessary steps like if it is a sandy soil, what are the type of common features of the sandy soil that will remain same wherever it is or if it is not soil, it will be similar.
So then, you have to calculate the moisture holding capacity, water holding capacity, how porous the soil is? Another thing that you can add is like the biodiversity present in the soil. Biodiversity of the soil and the micro organism and all of those things. You will need to consider some factors at least. I would prefer at least what type of soil will be better rather than going into very depth and where you have to go for soil testing and all of that and it will become very difficult and the system will not become feasible at that point.
What we can consider is something like the type of soil; sandy, gloomy, as well as some other kind of soil. Maybe you can have a question based on that and that you will need to calculate the internal factor
Ok sure. Thank you, Vishna. We will discuss. But, that is just some suggestions. Not neccessary for your to add, it is just something that I add to make the system more robust.
I have one more question. When you are doing your research in agriculture or in cultivation, did you go for actual form of asking the actual expert of agriculture or would you recommend any particular online resources for reference?
Apart from meeting the agriculturist in the agriculture universities and the farmers and all those people, we had certain organization, central level organization called ICICR, central crop agency for cotton crop in India. Certainly there will be a Ministry of Agriculture present in your place, wherever you are building your system.
Ministry of agriculture will be maintaining the data statistics as to what the weather conditions, what are the soil conditions and we will get lot of data.
And as well as what are the level of farmers as to what are their ability to input and what are their output, such data will be available with government resources. If you are able to get your hand on that, that will be very good. Because apart of the agriculturist and farmers, that data is very critical as it will help to analyse then build the system and as well as testing your system using that data. Those things will usually availabe online. You will need to find out the relevant website, based on your locality.
Any more questions from you guys, Nadaraj, Saleh and George?
Ok, we got alot of information with regards to fruit cultivation and crops in general, mostly related to the natural and artificial factors, which is something that we are trying to build on.
Thank you Vishna for this session. It has been very helpful and I am sure we will be contacting you again, if we have anything in doubt, if it is necessary. I would like to say thank you on behalf of George, Saleh, Nadaraj and myself. Thanks so much.