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PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore.
In Egypt, thousands of opponents of Egypt's Islamic president clashed with his supporters
and security forces across the country Friday, burning several offices of the Muslim Brotherhood
in the most violent and widespread protests since Mohamed Morsi came to power, sparked
by his move to grant himself sweeping powers. The critics of Morsi have called him the new
pharaoh as he passed edicts allowing him to overrule any judicial oversight, and giving
him essentially dictatorial powers.
Now joining us to talk about all of this is Hamid Dabashi. He's a professor of Iranian
studies and comparative literature at Columbia University in New York. He's a frequent contributor
to The Real News and author of the recently released book Corpus Anarchicum: Political
Protest, Suicidal Violence, and the Making of the Posthuman Body. Thanks for joining
us, Hamid.
HAMID DABASHI: Thank you, Paul. Anytime.
JAY: So tell us your take on what's going on in Cairo and across Egypt today.
DABASHI: My take is that Morsi was waiting to do this move and grab for power for a long
time. However, what occasioned it is the Israeli bombing of Gaza and the casualties and his
office being instrumental in negotiating a truce, a peace, momentary peace, and is not
particularly meaningful. And it is not something unusual. You know, back in 2008, 2009, Hosni
Mubarak did exactly the same.
But now he took advantage of this particular occasion, that there were global admirations
for him for having negotiated this peace treaty, momentary peace treaty, to grab power. But,
fortunately, because what is happening in Egypt is not a total revolution--in my book
on Arab Spring, I call it an open-ended revolution--within hours, thousands, maybe tens of thousands
of Egyptians have poured into various streets and opposing what he's doing.
In effect what is happening, Paul, is this is an unfinished revolution. Egyptians know
it. And step by step, if you go back to the time of Hosni Mubarak, if the ruling regime
had its way, Hosni Mubarak would have been in power. Then Omar Suleiman would have been
in power. Then the presidential candidate Ahmed Shafik would have been elected. But
none of that has happened, and the representative of Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammed Morsi, has
come to power with certain degree of democratic legitimacy. It is very important to keep in
mind that the election was free and fair and he became the president.
But now power corrupts, and as soon as he is in a position of power--and democracy is
messy. There is the question of a parliament which is heavily dominated by Muslim Brotherhood.
And the judiciary has been acting as a bumper against the drafting of the Constitution,
in which the Islamists' agenda, the Muslim Brotherhood agenda would have been dominant.
And many other factions of the revolutions are very concerned, and happy with the possibility
of that constitution. And he tried to take advantage of this particular moment in time
when he has global appreciation to dispense with the judiciary and sort of create a smoke
screen, a retrial of Hosni Mubarak, in effect give the Parliament, which is heavily dominated
by his faction, the possibility of drafting a constitution that would not be accepted
to many Egyptians.
JAY: And part of this seems to be a plan of the Muslim Brotherhood not only to consolidate
its control in Egypt backed by the United States, and a $1 billion loan-forgiveness
plan with Obama--I think a $4 billion-plus loan coming from the IMF. So Morsi's placed
himself pretty clearly in this camp, in the Western camp. On the other hand, he's allied
with Qatar, and he seems to also be connected with Saudi Arabia, and he seems to have taken
on some responsibility, if not full responsibility in the future for managing Gaza. This all
seems to be part of a plan. Now, that doesn't mean that's a plan that's going to work, but
that seems to be the scheme, do you think?
DABASHI: Absolutely correct. The question is that there are two different calculus.
One was the calculus of toppling the head of a regime, Hosni Mubarak. And now we're
entering into a second calculus, which is the regime that was in power, dominated by
the army, which is heavily influenced by the Americans, and also the Muslim Brotherhood
that is very much in need of money and support and regional coordination with Saudi Arabia,
that would keep it in power.
Now, those of us who are following this closely knew this from Bahrain. Bahrain is really
the critical question. As soon as Bahrain activists were denied access into entering
into Egypt, antennas went up that Mohamed Morsi is having an understanding with the
Saudis because of the money that he needs from the Saudis and the Qataris not to allow
Bahraini activists to enter Egypt in order to consolidate with their Egyptian counterparts
and do what Egyptians have done in Egypt, to do it in Bahrain.
So there is no doubt that the Saudis and the Qataris and the other Gulf areas, I mean,
they are scared by these revolutions. These are massive and open-ended revolutions, and
anything that can happen. And like all other rich people--Adelson here in the United States
tried to buy a president for Israel and failed--they think they can buy everything.
So your sort of formulation where Morsi is headed--and also not only Morsi, behind Morsi
the Egyptian army--and where, for example, The New York Times yesterday had a new article
about the understanding that is emerging between Obama and Morsi so far as Gaza is concerned--and
Obama has a deeply corrupting influence.
And this, in fact, this move of grabbing power, you might consider it a consequence of the
Gaza operation of the Israelis. Israelis are a critical factor in these counterrevolutionary
forces. They have pushed, in fact, Morsi towards Obama, towards the Saudis, towards the Qataris,
and towards a coalition of counterrevolutionary forces, to prevent the open-ended democratic
anticipations of these revolutions. But as you suggested in your point, this doesn't
mean--as you see evidence today in Cairo, in Alexandria, in other parts of Egypt, people
are out in the streets, people are calling him pharaoh, and people are saying in the
various newspapers, magazines, social networking, that they didn't do this revolution for yet
another version of Hosni Mubarak to come to power.
JAY: Yeah. I mean, it seems--without being there, it's hard for me to really make this
kind of estimation, but it seems like he's overplaying his hand, that--you know, he still
had quite a bit of support before this deal in Gaza, and certainly before these powers,
and now he's sort of exposed himself and at least the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Does this not lead to some splits within the Muslim Brotherhood?
DABASHI: Very much so, very much so. This is something that I have said since the beginning
of the revolution, that the monolithic conception that we have of Muslim Brotherhood is not
accurate. There are demographic changes, there are gender issues, and there are generational
issues. And the Muslim Brotherhood is going to split. And already people who are criticizing
him are people from other factions of Muslim Brotherhood, another presidential candidate.
So these are moments that the atom of Egyptian political culture is splitting into various
directions. And this is good to observe.
Yes, he did overplay his hand. He thought because of what happened in Gaza--I mean,
he misread Gaza. He thought that he had stopped the bloodshed in Gaza. But there is a different
way of reading the events of Gaza. If he had acted in the region in a manner that showed
that he has a mandate from the Egyptian Revolution, Netanyahu would not have dared to attack Gaza,
and 161--the last AP estimate--161 Palestinians, including 71 civilians, would have been alive.
So the fact that we have had those civilian casualties in Gaza already is an indication
that he is not acting as the representative of a massive national revolution.
So he misread that event. He kind of had a lapse into a Hosni Mubarak situation, which
is not unusual. You have to remember that when a political culture is changing, it still
very easily resorts back to what is habitual to it. And the pressure that comes from the
Americans, the money that comes from the Saudis and the Qataris, and the total implication
of the Egyptian army into American military apparatus in the region is very difficult
to dismantle. And the money that comes from IMF, the influence of World Bank, I mean,
these are mighty, mighty forces.
The only question is that a revolutionary leader has to trust the mandate that comes
from the people. And he just gave a speech, oh, I'm everybody's president, I mean the
best for the country, but he sounded awfully like Hosni Mubarak.
JAY: Thanks for joining us, Hamid.
DABASHI: With pleasure. Anytime.
JAY: And thanks for joining us on The Real News Network. Don't forget we're in our year-end
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