Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
Debbie Millman: Gunnar, it's wonderful to be here with you...a true honor. The first
question that I want to ask you is about a video I watched recently wherein you stated,
"architecture is a progression from the past through the present into the future" and I
was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on what you mean by that.
Gunnar Birkerts: By what I mean by that is that we are on this bridge that is...that
is...one end of the bridge is in the past, and that is our heritage and all that, and
the other end...the other side of the perimeter or the bridge and that is future...and that
is, we have to forge this side and we have to look at the other side...so that's...I
think that's the architectural...the architecture...of all of architecture is to...to...recognize
that we are progressing. Debbie Millman: So, in the mean-time how does
architecture create that continuum, from the past, to present, to future?
Gunnar Birkerts: Well, that's up to the...up to the doer, I don't want to talk in terms
of architecture theory about this. But, individually...now I'm creating that myself, this knowing history,
having seen and knowing what we are and having some dreams from where we're going or understanding.
So, that's the bridge and that's within me. And so, I can only speak about that. By the
way I will only speak about where I am, whetr I feel, I cannot represent the historical
society...[laughter] Debbie Millman: Okay, I won't ask you about
that. But, I do want to ask you a little bit about your parents and their influence on
you and then we can talk exclusively about you. You were born in Riga, Latvia. And, from
what I understand your childhood was really steeped in the mythology of your country and
both of your parents were scholars and folklorists who studied the cultural heritage of the Latvian
people. And so, I wanted to ask you in what way were they folklorists and how did that
influence you? Gunnar Birkerts: They were a...first of all
you have to know that that's a great folklore achievement is the Latvian song...songs. Which
is under the UNESCO protection now, because that's a great, great kind of heritage...manifestation.
So, my father was and mother was collecting Latvian folk anecdotes, sayings, so they were
volumes and volumes of sayings and anecdotes that were expressive of Latvian folk culture.
Debbie Millman: Kay Kaiser, in the book The Architecture of Gunnar Birkerts, stated "initially
Gunnar is as difficult to grasp as his architecture. A stranger overhearing a Birkerts conversation
would not know if he were an architect, an eastern European poet enlivened by sudden
freedom, or a Yougeon psychologist." Do you think you get that from your parents? Where
does that sort of diversity of personality come from?
Gunnar Birkerts: Well, I am a believer in destiny, in many ways, and also in certain
genetic inheritance and all that. My father studied psychology and philosophy...and...and
so...my mother was educated all the time and very, very well regarded by her...by her students
and people around for years as a consultant and all that. I grew up in a very well organized...my
mother...I was not spoiled like the kids are now...I have to have my principles, and all
that, and by the name...the name the principles, we'll come back to that because I'm using
that, in architecture. The principles...not...not theories, or all that, just principles. But,
yes...yes...that was my education, basically. And one of...of course you call it the European
education also; but it's also special because of my parents...my parents connection to the
development of thought and idea. Debbie Millman: Is it true that when you were
thirteen, while attending the First Gymnasium in Riga, you saw a classmate's architectural
rendering, and this was a boy named Burnsons, and instantly decided at that point that you
wanted to become an architect? At thirteen? Gunnar Birkerts: Well it was one more than
thirteen, fourteen maybe. [Laughter] But, still early years. Yes, yes that's true. That's
the only one that has been recorded as the beginning of my career, of my thinking in
architecture and my following. This has been my guiding thought, to be an architect. Why?
Because this rendering was an architectural style rendering that off course depicted a
building, and all that, and I, up to then, I had been drawing pots, pans, and apples
and all that in drawing class. But then I saw this and I said, "No, I want to do this,"
and from there on I never changed. Debbie Millman: What was it about Burnsons
drawing that struck you so profoundly? Gunnar Birkerts: Because it was architecture.
It was a, it was a building, it was a perspective type of building, you know. It had qualities
that formally I have not used and I said, " well that's the future is for me."
Debbie Millman: Did you ever find out what happened to Burnsons?
Gunnar Birkerts: No, I...I don't...I know he was the son of one of our teachers at the
high school, and a...I know one of his relatives was trying to get a hold of me, and trying
to find out more about...but that's gone now. Debbie Millman: So you completed two degrees
in engineering and in architecture at the Technische Hochschule in Stuttgart and were
exposed to both the Bauhaus and vernacular design. It seems like both are pretty profound
influences on you. Would you agree with that? Would you feel like that is the case?
Gunnar Birkerts: Well, let's say that I agree, but I need a little time to explain a bit
more about myself. Because in a way I'm a little different from a lot of the other people
at the Saarinen office because I came from Germany, from having finished at Stuttgart,
and the course, which was a unique course. Stuttgart, [can't make out], and Berlin were
the top schools, the top engineering schools, Techinsche Hochschule. And, a of course you
can imagine, you have seen it in pictures, but others have kind of experienced, Germany
was absolutely in rubble, in the cities. So, at the schools of architecture the courses
there shifted to practical matters. How to deal with the rubble of the cities, how we
can build a new urban environment, from what's there. So, actually a lot of the education
was on recycling of rubble, and making pre-stressed beams, pre-stressed structural members, or
brick or rocks, and all of that. And, basically the mentality was practical. There was not
much talk about architectural philosophy or theories and all that. Nobody wanted to hear
that, everybody had to do hands on architecture. You know, and that is even...I..I'm under
estimating a little bit what was going on. But for me, I was there at a time at the school,
I was the youngest architect because the other architects who came, the students who came,
they came from the war years and they were at least five years older than I was. I was
the youngest. So, also I was maybe the least interested in rebuilding, working with rubble
because I was looking over the Baltic, I was looking at Finland, I was looking at Sweden,
for architecture that I liked, that were talking what I understand, I didn't want to get involved
in dramatics all the time. That's why, um.., I'm coming back to your question, I go around
but, your question was about... Debbie Millman: The influence of vernacular
architecture and Bauhaus on you.. Gunnar Birkerts: Yeah, the influence.. the
Bauhaus was very influence in again, in the visual sense. Again, I have to say that a
lot of my learning about architecture and architects and all that is individual. I have
not, I don't read, I don't read manuals, I don't read philosophies, I don't read any.
But, coming back to that, the thing of Technische Hochschule Stuttgart was received a number
of Bauhaus teachers and our Dean, Dean Turker (sp?) was a Bauhaus dean. We had interiors,
professor Schnick (sp?), and then bau master was in painting. We had the faculty of Bauhaus
people there. And, next more important thing is that right across the street, practically,
from the college, from our building, was the Ritzenhoff. The Ritzenhoff was an arrangement
of buildings by all the Modernists. There was Mies van der Rohe, there was an Aalto,
Schuroon, you name. And, and everybody had a building. It was almost like a village.
So sometimes we had a drawing class in...in...in...we put to sketch the Corbu, one of Corbu's villas,
and anyway...so, this thing was sort of absorbed, inhaled, and without really identifying, at
that time, now it's different. Debbie Millman: I read that you first became
interested in Eliel and Eero Saarinen from the US Information Agency Library and came
to Birmingham, Michigan in December of 1949 to seek work with them. Did you have a job
lined up or did you just pop in? Gunnar Birkerts: No, it's a...I was interested
in the Saarinenes, yes. Of course. At that time all the Saarinens, Eliel was really what
was the heavy weight. And, about Eero I didn't know. I know the name Saarinen, and the next
thing I knew was exquisite, exquisite drawings that I saw published of the first Tech Center
and then from Jay Barr (sp?) which was an excellent renderer. And...a...also that some
of the school...Drake...for instance Drake University also had buildings, and they were
in color. When I was studying we were just black and white, black and white ink or charcoal,
or whatever. Color didn't exist. It was sort of Miesian type. But then I was taken by that.
Certainly, you're right, you're coming to my coming over, fine. I came over, I had no
introduction, I had nothing. I had a letter from my professor who had visited Saarinen
and he said, "well there's a guy...so..so...so...so...so." And, so I came here expecting like in Europe
an architects residence and office is together and so I was looking for his residence finally,
after I was unloaded here at the corner of Woodward and Long Lake I went over to Kingsly
Inn asking for Saarinen, nobody knew...nobody knew Saarinen. So, I sort of checked in my
suit case, that's all I had to check in, and I went further looking for...finally, I found
somebody who said, "well you go down the line down on the street, and that is his house."
I went to his house and knocked on the door, and they said, "ah..no,no, no...his office
is back there." [laughter] So, I go back there, I go to his office, I knock, I go in and a
nice man comes out (can't make out the name) who was known, who was a good architect - planner,
and he was a German kind of aristocrat. He was giving Eero hints on how to move around
in world, and so, he was the greeter for..for..., you know a Greenhorn like me. So, he took
me under his wing and showed me around, but he said "ah...Eero cannot see you," and I
said well, when can he see me. He said, "well, tonight at 3 o'clock in the morning and I
can see if I can..." [laughter]. So, alright, what will I do? So a nice, nice man, Dave
Gear (sp?) whose house was nearby took me over and gave me a glass of scotch, which
I had never had scotch before, and I didn't like that very much, so I stayed there until
3 o'clock in the morning
and then I walked over
to the interview.