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AND KATHLEEN, I'LL START WITH
YOU.
DO YOU THINK HE BROKE THE LAW?
>> WHETHER OR NOT HE BROKE THE
LAW IS A LESS IMPORTANT QUESTION
THAN WHETHER OR NOT THE
GOVERNMENT BROKE THE LAW WHEN IT
SPIED ON MILLIONS OF AMERICANS
THAT SUSPECTED NO WRONG DOING.
>> DO YOU REGARD HIM AS A HERO?
>> I THINK IT'S VERY COURAGEOUS
IN THIS CLIMATE OF AN
UNPRECEDENTED CRACKDOWN AND A
WAR ON INFORMATION, A CRACKDOWN
ON
MISMANAGEMENT, ILLEGALITY OR
THREAT TO PUBLIC SAFETY.
>> I'LL TAKE THAT AS A YES.
JEFFREY, YOU DISAGREE.
>> EVERY 29-YEAR-OLD WHO DOESN'T
GREAT WITH WHAT THE GOVERNMENT
IS DOING DOESN'T GET PERMISSION
TO BREAK THE LAW, DAMAGE
NATIONAL SECURITY AND RUN OFF TO
CHINA WHEN HE'S DONE.
IT'S NOT THE WAY YOU PROTEST IN
THE UNITED STATES.
THERE ARE WAYS TO DO IT.
I'M NOT SURE THIS GOVERNMENT
PROGRAM IS A GOOD PROGRAM.
BUT STEALING DOCUMENTS FROM THE
NSA AND TURNING THEM OVER TO
GLENN GREENWALD IS NOT THE
AMERICAN WAY AND I THINK IT'S A
DISGRACE WHAT HE'S DONE.
>> GO AHEAD, KATHLEEN.
>> THAT'S OBVIOUSLY ONE OPINION
BUT UNFORTUNATELY THOSE LEGAL
CHANNELS THAT MR. TOOBIN
REFERENCED ARE NOT EFFECTIVE.
YOU CAN ASK SOME OTHER NSA
WHISTLEBLOWERS, THAT CLIENTS OF
OURS WHO RAISED CONCERNS YEARS
AGO ABOUT THIS SAME EXACT KIND
OF SURVEILLANCE.
NOT ONLY WERE THEIR CONCERNS
IGNORED, THEY WERE PROSECUTED
UNDER THE ESPIONAGE ACT.
UNTIL WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED
THERE, THE PROSECUTION COLLAPSED
UNDER THE WEIGHT OF THE TRUTH.
TO SAY THERE ARE INTERNAL
CHANNELS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE AND
THAT ARE SAFE IS COMPLETELY
FALSE.
THAT'S JUST NOT THE CASE.
>> JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE A
GOVERNMENT POLICY DOESN'T MEAN
YOU GET TO WIN WHEN YOU FIGHT
THE POLICY.
THERE ARE LOTS OF RESPONSIBLE
PEOPLE IN THIS GOVERNMENT,
SENATOR UDALL, SENATOR MERKLEY,
PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSET CAN JOIN
WITH THEM.
BUT YOU DON'T GET TO JUST
DISCLOSE IT ON YOUR OWN AND THEN
RUN OFF TO CHINA.
THIS IS A GUY WHO IS CONCERNED
ABOUT FREE SPEECH AND HE GOES TO
CHINA?
A COUNTRY THAT REPRESSES MORE
FREE SPEECH IN AN HOUR THAN AT
UNITED STATES DOES IN A YEAR?
>> I THINK HE EXPLAINED WHY HE
WENT TO HONG KONG.
I THINK FOCUSING ON HIM IS A
TRANSPARENT DISTRACTION FROM
WHERE THE FOCUS SHOULD BE, WHICH
IS ON THE MESSAGE, ON HIS
DISCLOSURES.
I THINK THERE'S SOME CLEAR
CONFUSION HERE ABOUT WHAT A
WHISTLEBLOWING DISCLOSURE IS.
WHAT MR. SNOWDEN DISCLOSED IS
NOT A POLICY DEBATE, IT'S
EVIDENCE OF GOVERNMENT
ILLEGALITY.
>> HE EXPOSED A COURT ORDER
WHICH SAID THEY HAD AUTHORITY TO
DO IT.
I DON'T SEE HOW --
>> SECTION 215 OF --
>> THAT MAY BE A BAD PROGRAM
BUT -- I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD.
>> SENSE 215 OF THE PATRIOT ACT
REQUIRES EVERY INVESTIGATION
THAT HAS INFORMATION THAT'S
COLLECTED UNDER THAT ACT BE
RELATED TO INTERNATIONAL
TERRORISM OR STOPPING