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ROSE COMMUNICATIONS
FROM OUR STUDIOS IN NEW YORK
CITY, THIS IS CHARLIE ROSE.
>> DR. TOM COBURN IS HERE, SEA
REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM
OKLAHOMA, HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE
GANG OF SIX, A BIPARTISAN GROUP
FOCUSED ON REDUCING THE DEFICIT
AND PART OF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S
DEFICIT REDUCTION COMMITTEE AND
KNOWN FOR BEING A FISCAL AND
SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE HE UNVEILED
A PROPOSAL THAT WOULD REDUCE THE
DEFICIT, CUTTING
EVERYTHING FROM DISCRETIONARY
AND MANDATORY SPENDING TO TAX
REFORM.
HE TALKED ABOUT OUR FISCAL
IMBALANCES AND HOW TO BALANCE
THEM.
IT IS CALLED THE DEBT BOMB.
I AM PROUD TO HAVE TOM COBURN AT
THIS TABLE, WITH MANY
DISCUSSIONS WHILE HE WAS IN
WASHINGTON AND I WAS IN NEW
YORK.
>> THANK YOU, CHARLIE.
>> Rose: I SHOULD SAY SEVERAL
THINGS ABOUT YOU AS WE BEGIN AND
MANY PEOPLE WHO DO WHAT I DO
UNDERSTAND THIS.
WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT YOU IS
ONE, A MEDICAL DOCTOR, ALSO,
UNIQUE ABOUT YOU, I MEAN YOU
HAVE BEEN STRONGLY, STRONG
PASSIONATE FEELINGS ABOUT
ABORTION, REFLECTED IN WHAT YOU
HAVE SAID AND HOW YOU HAVE
POSITIONED -- POSITIONS YOU HAVE
TAKEN, THIRDLY, YOU ARE CLOSE
TO, REASONABLY CLOSE FOR A
REPUBLICAN SENATOR TO THE
PRESIDENT.
>> UH-HUH.
>> Rose: YOU HAVE A
RELATIONSHIP, A CONVERSATION.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT, THE
CONVERSATION?
>> OH, IT IS EVERYTHING FROM
FAMILY OR WHEN HE IS GETTING A
HARD TIME THAT I THINK IS UNDUE
I WILL CALL HIM AND ENCOURAGE
HIM, YOU KNOW., YOU KNOW, HE IS
JUST A FRIEND, YOU KNOW, AND I
THINK IT IS A GREAT EXAMPLE, YOU
CAN BE POLAR OPPOSITES IN TERMS
OF YOUR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY BUT
YOU CAN HAVE GREAT
RELATIONSHIPS.
>> Rose: THEN WHY DOESN'T IT
HAPPEN MORE OFTEN?
>> WELL, BECAUSE I AM NOT
LOOKING TO GET RE-ELECTED AND I
AM NOT LOOKING TO GAIN ANYTHING
FROM IT.
I DON'T THINK HE IS REALLY
LOOKING TO GAIN ANYTHING FROM
HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH ME.
WE ARE ASSOCIATION, OUR
ASSOCIATION CAME AS WE CAME INTO
THE SENATE TOGETHER AND WE JUST
LIKE EACH OTHER.
AND THERE IS NO SECONDARY
MOTIVATIONS FOR US, AND SO --
>> Rose: IT IS NOT POLITICAL?
>> WE DISAGREE --
>> Rose: NO, NO, THE
RELATIONSHIP NOT POLITICAL, IT
IS PERSONAL, REGARDLESS OF
POSITION?
>> AND BESIDES THAT, HE IS A
GOOD BASKETBALL PLAYER.
>> Rose: AND YOU?
>> NO.
I AM NOT.
>> Rose: HAVE YOU BEEN ON THE
COURT WITH HIM?
>> NO, I HAVE NOT AND WILL NOT.
>> Rose: YOU DON'T WANT TO?
>> I DON'T WANT TO GET HURT.
>> Rose: SO HOW DO YOU SEE
WHAT THE GREAT DEBATE OF THIS
ELECTION OUGHT TO BE BETWEEN
DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS?
>> WHAT IT OUGHT TO BE?
>> Rose: WHAT IT OUGHT TO BE
AND WHAT IT MIGHT BE.
>> IT OUGHT TO BE THE SAME
DEBATE AND THE THING WE ARE
MISSING IN OUR COUNTRY TODAY IS
NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE REAL
PROBLEMS.
WHAT THE DEBATE OUGHT TO BE IS
WE OUGHT TO COME TOGETHER AND
IDENTIFY WHAT THE REAL PROBLEMS
ARE, AND PRIVATELY EVERYONE WILL
TELL YOU THE SAME THING, THEY
ALL KNOW WHAT THE REAL PROBLEMS
ARE.
THE DEBATE OUGHT TO BE IS WHAT
ARE THE SOLUTIONS TO THOSE
PROBLEMS, RATHER THAN, DUCKING
AND DENYING THAT THE REAL
PROBLEMS ARE IMMINENT AND URGENT
FOR OUR COUNTRY.
>> Rose: BOEHNER HAS A
CONVERSATION WITH -- AND HE SAID
TO ME THAT SINCE THE MENU, THE
MENU WHEN THEY WERE HAVING
SERIOUS NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE
PRESIDENT, AND HE SAID HE WAS
PREPARED TO ACT ON THE REVENUE
SIDE, IF, IN FACT HE COULD GET
THE PRESIDENT TO ACT ON THE
SPENDING SIDE, AND HE SAID IT
FAILED IN THE END BECAUSE THE
PRESIDENT WENT BACK AND HE
DID
MORE REVENUE.
IS THAT YOUR ASCERTAINMENT OF
THAT?
>> I AM NOT PRIVY TO ANY OF THE
CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN THE
PRESIDENT AND THE SPEAKER,
UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT WE DIDN'T
GET WAS COMPROMISE WHEN WE
SHOULD HAVE.
>> Rose: WITHOUT POINTING THE
FINGER TO EITHER SIDE?
>> I WASN'T THERE, AND NOBODY
WAS THERE.
>> Rose: DO YOU REMEMBER THE
GANG OF SIX?
>> SURE, I REMEMBER THE GANG OF
SIX AND WE WORKED HARD, WE HAD
TOUGH BATTLES.
AND IN TERMS OF HOW WE CAME
TOGETHER, BUT EVEN THAT WAS
UTILIZED IN A WAY TO NOT END UP
IN THE LONG RUN NOT GETTING
COMPROMISED --
>> Rose: SIMPSON-BOWLES
COMMISSION.
>> YOU BET.
YOU KNOW, MY POSITION IS, I
THINK THESE PROBLEMS ARE SO
GREAT FOR OUR COUNTRY I AM
WILLING TO MOVE A LONG WAYS FROM
MY POLITICAL POSITIONS FOR,
FIRST TO HAVE THE DEBATE, TWO TO
HAVE THE LEGISLATION SO WE SOLVE
THE PROBLEMS, EVEN IF I DON'T
GET THE MAJORITY OF WHAT I WANT
THAT IS HOW SERIOUS IT IS.
THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE 60 TOM
COBURNS IN THE SENATE, IT ISN'T
GOING TO HAPPEN, SO WHAT I HAVE
TO REALIZE IS, WHAT IS AT RISK
FOR OUR COUNTRY? AND IF YOU
THINK ABOUT IT, I MEAN, IT IS
FUNDAMENTAL, IF YOU ARE A
COLLEGE STUDENT TODAY, ONE IN
TWO CAN'T GET A JOB OR
REMARKABLY UNEMPLOYED THAT WILL
MOVE, ONE OUT OF TWO, THREE,
FOUR, OR 5, IF WE DON'T SOLVE
THIS ACCOUNT IN A ACCOUNT, THAT
IRA ACCOUNT WON'T GO ANYWHERE
NEAR RESOLVING YOUR RETIREMENT
MEANS BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE
INFLATION TO DEBASE THE
PURCHASING VALUE OF WHAT WE HAVE
IN YOUR ACCOUNT, YOU KNOW, IF
YOU WANT YOUR GRANDCHILDREN TO
BE ABLE TO GO TO COLLEGE, THAT
IS GOING TO BE AN IMPOSSIBILITY
IF THINGS UNWIND, IF WE DON'T
ACT, AND SO IT IS NOT -- PEOPLE
CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, I WAS ASKED
ABOUT THE SECRETARY GEITHNER
DISPUTING WHAT I SAY IN THIS
BOOK ABOUT OUR RISK OF BECOMING
GREECE, BUT WHAT EVERYBODY HAS
TO UNDERSTAND, HE CAN'T, HE
CAN'T AGREE PUBLICLY WITH ME ON
THAT ISSUE.
>> Rose: BECAUSE WHAT HE SAYS
HAS AN IMPACT ON THE PSYCHOLOGY
--
>> OF THE MARKETS.
>> HE SAYS, YEAH THAT IS RIGHT,
GUESS WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR BONDS
TOMORROW? HE CAN'T AGREE WITH
ME.
BUT HE ALSO SAID WE ARE NOT
GOING TO HAVE A DEBT DOWNGRADE
AND THREE WEEKS LATER WE HAVE A
DEBT DOWNGRADE, WE WILL HAVE
ANOTHER DEBT DOWNGRADE BECAUSE
NOBODY IS LEADING IN WASHINGTON
TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS.
>> Rose: AND WHEN WE GOT THE
LAST DEBT DOWNGRADE, CREDIT OR
DEBT FROM STANDARD & POORS THEY
CITED POLITICAL INACTION.
>> RIGHT.
>> Rose: AS THE PRINCIPAL
REASON.
>> RIGHT.
SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THEN?
>> Rose: NOTHING.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. AND SO WHAT --
WE HAVE ALL OF THESE -- AS A
DOCTOR I AM TRAINED TO LOOK AT
DISEASE, AND THE POLITICAL ARENA
THE DISEASE IS ALL THE SYMPTOMS
WE SEE OUT THERE OF
UNSUSTAINABLE MEDICARE,
UNSUSTAINABLE -- WHAT IS THE
PROBLEM? THE PROBLEM IS LACK OF
LEADERSHIP.
AND LONG-TERM VIEW OF WHAT IS
BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY.
>> Rose: LACK OF LEADERSHIP IN
THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH?
>> BOTH SIDES.
>> Rose: AND THE LEGISLATIVE
BRANCH?
>> BOTH SIDES WE OUGHT TO BE
BENDING OVER BACKWARDS WITH THIS
PRESIDENT SO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM
BEFORE THE ELECTION, YOU KNOW,
IF WE THINK ABOUT WHAT COULD
HAPPEN TO US, IF YOU LOOK AT
WHAT IS HAPPENING, IN EUROPE AND
WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN JAPAN
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVEN'T
FOCUSED ON --
>> Rose: JUST TELL US WHAT IS
HAPPENING AS YOU SEE IT IN
EUROPE AND WHAT IS GOING TO
HAPPEN IN JAPAN.
>> THEY CAN'T DELEVERAGE THEIR
DEBT.
>> Rose: IN EUROPE?
>> IN EUROPE, AND THEIR US AER
TY PROGRAMS STARTED TOO
LATE, WHICH MAKES THE POINT OF
PAUL KRUGMAN IF YOU DON'T HAVE
ANY GROWTH AND YOU HAVE
AUSTERITY --
>> Rose:.
>> YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN A
DOWNWARD SPIRAL.
WELL, THEY ARE IN A DOWNWARD
SPIRAL AND ALL WE HAVE DONE WITH
THE LTROS AND ALL OF THESE OTHER
MACHINATIONS OF TRYING TO PUMP
UP THE EURO IS BOUGHT SOME TIME.
BUT THE END RESULT IS GOING TO
BE THE SAME.
>> Rose: AND TIME IS COMING IN
TERMS OF DECEMBER AND JAB?
>> YEAH.
>> Rose: BUT LET ME STAY WITH
WHAT PULL KRUGMAN SAID HE WAS
HERE LAST NIGHT AND WHAT HE
WOULD IMMEDIATELY DO IS HAVE
STATES, STATES AND
MUNICIPALITIES HIRE TEACHERS,
AND POLICE PEOPLE.
>> THAT IS NOT THE ANSWER.
THE ANSWER IS LET THE MARKET
SHAKE OUT THE DELEVERAGING AND
MAKE SURE THAT WE CREATE AN
INCENTIVE, I BELIEVE, THE ANSWER
IS TO CREATE AN INCENTIVE.
>> Rose: TO TAKE OUT THE
DELEVERAGINGING, WHAT DOES THAT
MEAN?
>> WELL, WE ARE AT 100 PERCENT
DEBT TO GDP, WE ARE IN A DEBT
CRISIS, DELEVERAGING --
>> Rose: 100 PERCENT? I
THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT 75?
>> NO, 90 PERCENT PURE BUT IF
YOU CONSIDER -- AND IF YOU LOOK
AT RUDOLPH AND REINHARD WHAT
THEY SAY IS YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER
GROSS DEBT, WE ARE OVER
100 PERCENT.
>> Rose: THE OBJECTIVE IS TO
GET IT TO 75?
>> THE OBJECTIVE IS ACTUALLY TO
60.
>> Rose: RIGHT.
>> TO WHERE IT IS SUSTAINABLE.
BUT IF, IN FACT, WE DELEVER,
WHICH DELEVERAGING TAKES ON
AVERAGE EIGHT TO 12 YOWRZ YEARS
AND INTO OUR FOURTH YEAR ON
THIS, HOW DO YOU KEEP THINGS
GOING? WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS TO
KEEP THE CONFIDENCE OF THE
INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL
COMMUNITY THAT WE ARE GOING TO
WORK OUR WAY OUT OF IT, AND WHAT
WE DON'T WANT TO DO IS EVER SEND
A SIGNAL TO THE BOND ENTITIES
THROUGHOUT THE WORLD THAT WE ARE
PAST THE TIPPING POINT, AND HOW
DO YOU DO THAT? WELL, YOU CAN
DO IT LIKE SWEDEN DID IT WHERE
THEY CUT TAXES BUT THEY ALSO CUT
SPENDING, SO THE NECK EFFECT ON
THEIR ECONOMY FROM THE REDUCTION
IN GOVERNMENT SPENDING.
>> Rose: BECAUSE THEY WERE
SPENDING LESS?
>> RIGHT.
AND SO IT WAS OFFSET, BUT WHAT
HAPPENS IS, WE HAVE GOT OVER
$2 TRILLION SITTING ON THE
SIDELINE IN OUR COUNTRY THAT IS
NOT BEING INVESTED, AND THAT IS
BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ANY
CONFIDENCE IN THE FUTURE.
>> Rose: SO IF YOU SHOW THEM
SOME CONFIDENCE, THEY WOULD BE
PREPARED TO MAKE INVESTMENTS AND
HIRE PEOPLE --
>> YOU BET.
AND MOST OF THE VERY WEALTHY IN
THIS COUNTRY WILL GLADLY GO
ALONG WITH PAYING A WHOLE LOT
MORE TAXES IF THEY THINK IT IS
GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.
>> Rose: HOW DO YOU CREATE
CONSUMER DEMAND?
>> YOU CREATE CONSUMER DEMAND BY
CUTTING TAXES AND INCREASING THE
VALUE OF MONEY IN PEOPLE'S
POCKET.
I JUST READ AN INTERESTING
ARTICLE WHERE WHAT IS HAPPENING
NOW, CONSUMER SPENDING IS UP
FASTER THAN WHAT CONSUMER INCOME
IS UP, RIGHT? WHICH MEANS
ULTIMATELY YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE
DEBT, BUT THE REASON THAT IT IS
NOT REALLY ADDING TO CONSUMER
DEBT RIGHT NOW IS WE HAVE SO
MANY PEOPLE SITTING IN HOMES
THEY OWN THAT THEY QUIT MAKING
PAYMENTS ON THEY ARE NOT MAKING
THE MORTGAGE PAYMENTS SO THEY
HAVE DISPOSABLE INCOME, WELL WE
ARE IN THIS HOLE AND I AM SURE
THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS TO GET
OUT OF IT.
>> Rose: THEY ARE NOT MAKING
PAYMENTS BECAUSE THE HOME IS
UNDERWATER.
>> RIGHT.
BUT THEY ARE NOT OUT OF THE
PLACE AND THEY ARE KIND OF A
RENTER IN RESIDENCE BUT NOT
MAKING PAYMENTS SO THERE IS AN
EXTRA DISPOSABLE INCOME, THERE
ARE A LOT OF WAYS FOR US TO GET
OUT OF IT, BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING
IN OUR COUNTRY IS WE HAVE NOT --
A AND THE REASON I WROTE THIS
BOOK I WANT THE AVERAGE AMERICAN
TO SEE HOW WE GOT WHERE WE ARE
AND I AM NOT SAYING I AM ALL
RIGHT IN THE BOOK, BUT I AM
SAYING HERE ARE SOME SOLUTIONS
FOR US TO GET OUT OF IT.
>> Rose: I YOU ARE SAYING
BEFORE YOU HAVE SOLUTIONS YOU
HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HOW WE GOT
WHERE WE ARE AND THE REASON WE
GOT HOW WE ARE IS WE LIVE BEYOND
OUR MEANS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT WE LIVED THE
LAST 30 YEARS IN THIS COUNTRY
OFF THE NEXT 30 AND THE BILL IS
DUE.
>> Rose: SO WHEN YOU TALK
ABOUT $9 TRILLION.
>> UH-HUH.
>> -- OVER TEN YEARS, WHERE
DOES IT COME FROM?
>> IT IS NOT HARD.
IF, IN FACT, YOU -- EVERYWHERE I
HAVE GONE.
>> Rose: MILITARY BA BASE,
SIMPSON-BOWLES SUGGESTED FOUR
AND A HALF.
>> THAT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE
TRYING TO BUILD A CONSENSUS, I
AM SUGGESTING WHAT I HAVE SEEN,
I HAVE DONE MORE OVERSIGHT IN
THE SENATE MORE THAN ANY SENATOR
IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, I HAVE
LOOKED --
>> Rose: LET IT BE NOTED
EVERYBODY LOOKS AT
SIMPSON-BOWLES IN PART AND WE
DON'T NEED FOUR AND A HALF
TRILLION WE NEED 9 TRILLION OVER
TEN YEARS?
>> RIGHT.
IF EVERYBODY LOOKS AT BOWLS
SIMPSON, EVERYBODY AGREES FOUR
AND A HALF TRILLION .. IS JUST
ENOUGH TO SEND A SIGNAL TO
FINISH TIME DOING IT SO IF WE
GOT FOUR AND A HALF TRILLION
DOLLARS BY BOWLS SIMPSON IN THE
NEXT FOUR AND A HALF YEARS WE
WILL NEED ANOTHER FOUR AND A
HALF TRILLION IF WE WANT TO GET
OUT OF THE HOLE SO WE TAKE A
TRILLION-DOLLAR OUT OF THE
PENTAGON AND PEOPLE SAY, OH AND
I AM A HAWK, I AM A DEFENSE
HAWK, BUT EVERYWHERE I HAVE
BEEN, EVERY MILITARY MAN I HAVE
TALKED TO OR WOMAN, SAY, IF YOU
HAD TO, TOMORROW, COULD YOU GET
TEN TO FIFTEEN PERCENT OUT OF
YOUR BUDGET? THERE ISN'T ONE
THAT HASN'T TOLD ME YES.
>> Rose: WOULD LEON PANETTA
TELL YOU THAT?
>> WELL,.
>> Rose: TEN TO FIFTEEN
PERCENT?
>> PRIVATELY HE MIGHT, THE POINT
IS, THEY DON'T KNOW, YOU REALIZE
WE DON'T EVEN HAVE FINANCIAL
STATEMENT OF THE PENTAGON? THEY
CAN'T EVEN GET AN AUDITED
FINANCIAL STATEMENT? THEY DON'T
EVEN KNOW HOW MANY PROGRAMS THEY
HAVE GOT.
THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.
THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY
PAID THE BILL OR NOT PAID THE
BILL.
>> Rose: YOU TAKE 20 PERCENT
OUT OUT OF THE PENTAGON BUDGET.
>> 15 PERCENT.
>> Rose: 15 PERCENT HOW MUCH
WILL THAT GIVE YOU OVER TEN
YEARS.
>> A TRILLION-DOLLAR.
>> SO NOW WE ARE DOWN TO EIGHT,
WHERE DO YOU FIND THE REST?
>> YOU REFORM, CUT GO AND A HALF
TRILLION FROM DISCRETIONARY
SPENDING.
>> Rose: IT IS NOT THAT MUCH.
>> IT HAS DOUBLED.
IF WE DOUBLED THE SIZE --
>> Rose: WHAT IS THE.
>> WE DOUBLED THE SIZE OF THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OVER THE LAST
TEN YEARS IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND WHEN PEOPLE HEAR THAT, THEY
CAN'T BELIEVE IT.
>> Rose: DOES IT COME FROM
DISCRETIONARY SPENDING?
>> IT IS BOTH.
THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS ARE
ENTITLEMENTS IF YOU LOOK AT ANY
PIE, DISCRETIONARY SPENDING IS
NOT A LARGE PART OF THAT PIE.
>> THE IT IS 600 BILLION OUTSIDE
OF THE PENTAGON, OUTSIDE OF THE
PENTAGON, THERE YOU GO.
THAT IS STILL 600 BILLION, IF
YOU CUT THAT, 20 PERCENT, YOU
GET 1.25 TRILLION.
>> AND WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU CUT,
THIS IS MY POINT, WHAT HAPPENED
TO THAT, WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT
AMOUNT OUT OF DISCRETIONARY
SPENDING? WHO SUFFERS BECAUSE
OF THAT?
>> NOBODY.
NOBODY, LET ME GIVE YOU SOME
EXAMPLES, WE HAVE 47 JOB
TRAINING PROGRAMS, SPENT ALMOST
$19 BILLION A YEAR, NONE OF THEM
WORKED, ALL OF THEM DUPLICATE
EACH OTHER EXCEPT FOR THREE, AND
WE ARE THINKING ABOUT ADDING
MORE.
WHY WOULD YOU HAVE 47 JOB
TRAINING PROGRAMS? WE HAVE 29
PROGRAMS TO EMPHASIZE --
>> IN.
>> Rose: ARE YOU SAYING YOU
CUT THEM DOWN AND HAVE ONE BIG
JOB PROGRAM?
>> NO, HAVE TWO OR THREE.
>> Rose: TWO OR THREE --
>>
>> Rose: IT IS CLEAR THINK ONE
OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO DO IS
CREATE WORKERS SO THEY HAVE THE
SKILLS TO GET JOBS THAT ARE --
>> THAT'S RIGHT AND WE ARE
SPENDING THAT.
THERE IS NOT A METRIC OUT THERE
THAT SAYS WE ARE SUCCESSFUL.
NOT ON ANY ONE OF THOSE
PROGRAMS.
NONE OF THEM.
SO THE QUESTION IS, WHAT
EVERYBODY ASSUMES ABOUT THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS RIGHT, WE
HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WE ARE DOING,
AND ANY TIME SOMETHING POPS UP,
WE CREATE ANOTHER PROGRAM RATHER
THAN LOOKING --
>> Rose: SO WHEN YOU SAY THIS
IN A CONVERSATION WITH THE
PRESIDENT, WHAT DOES HE SAY TO
YOU.
>> I HAVE HAD THOSE
CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, BUT --
>> WELL, BECAUSE WHY NOT? HIS
TIME IS HIS TIME AND IT IS HIS
PRIORITY, IF HE WANTS TO ASK --
>> Rose: I GOT YOU.
>> MY RELATIONSHIP IS AS A
PERSONAL FRIEND OF HIS.
WHEN HE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT
THOSE THINGS I WILL BE HAPPY TO
TALK TO HIM.
BUT I DO KNOW THEY KEEP ASKING,
WHY DOES COBURN ALWAYS FIND OUT
THIS STUFF AND WE DON'T KNOW IT,
IN OTHER WORDS --
>> Rose: YOU ARE SAYING THE
ADMINISTRATION SAYS THAT SOMEHOW
COME COBURN KNOWS ABOUT DEFENSE
SPENDING AND WE DON'T?
>> YEAH, HOW COMES HE KNOWS ALL
OF THESE NUTS AND NOOKS AND
CRANNIES AND ALL OF THIS WASTE
AND DUPLICATION? I MEAN, THINK
ABOUT, HERE IS MEDICARE, PRIME
PROGRAMS FOR OUR SENIORS.
>> Rose: YES.
>> IF YOU LOOK AT IT IN TERMS OF
IMPROPER PAYMENTS AND FRAUD, IT
IS $100 BILLION A YEAR.
SO CUT TWO-THIRD OF THAT, YOU
SAVED A TRILLION-DOLLAR IN
MEDICARE BEFORE YOU EVEN TOUCH
THE PROGRAM.
>> Rose: A TRILLION OUT OF
MEDICARE?
>> JUST ON FRAUD.
>> Rose:.
>> JUST ON FRAUD.
>> Rose: ALL RIGHT.
>> YOU HAVE TWO AND A HALF.
>> Rose: IT HAS NOTHING TO DO
WITH THE FACT NOBODY WILL BE
DENIED THEIR OWN MEDICARE
PAYMENTS IF THEY ARE SICK?
>> , NO HERE IS THE SITUATION.
>> Rose: YOU ARE NOT GOING TO
CHANGE THE --
>> I DO THINK WE HAVE TO CHANGE
IT.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE IT HE
HEALTHY IN THE LONG-TERM, I AM A
BABY BOOMER WE ARE JUST NOW
STARTING TO RECEIVE THE BABY
BOOMERS INTO MEDICARE, IT IS
UNSUSTAINABLE.
>> Rose: THE RYAN BUDGET SAYS
WHAT?
>> IT IS A MUCH LONGER APPROACH
OF THIS THAN I DO.
>> Rose: RIGHT.
>> I AM NOT AFRAID TO SAY, YOU
KNOW, WE HAVE TO, WE HAVE TO
HAVE A MEANS TEST ON MEDICARE.
THE VERY WEALTHY ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO PAY MORE OF THEIR SHARE.
>> Rose: SO IF YOU ARE AT A
CERTAIN LEVEL, IF IF YOU ARE
WEALTHY NO MATTER WHAT YOU
CONTRIBUTED NO MATTER THE FACT
YOU HAVE BEEN ENTITLED TO
MEDICARE IF YOU ARE WEALTHY
BECAUSE OF THE MEANS TEST YOU
WILL NOT RECEIVE MEDICAL CARE?
>> YOU WILL RECEIVE IT BUT YOU
WILL PAY A HIGHER PERCENTAGE FOR
WHAT YOU GET.
REMEMBER, HERE IS SOMETHING THAT
MOST PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE, THE
AVERAGE WORKING COUPLE PUTS IN
110,000 INTO MEDICARE.
THEY TAKE OUT $350,000.
THEY PUT IN 100 AND TAKE OUT
300, ESSENTIALLY.
HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THAT CAN
LAST WITH THE 12 TO 15 MILLION
THAT ARE GOING TO GO IN, IN THE
NEXT --
>> Rose: WHAT NATION DOES BEST
WITH THAT?
>> SWITZERLANDER LAND DOES BEST.
>> HOW DO THEY DO IT?
>> WELL, THEY HAVE A PRIVATE
INSURANCE MARKET, AND THEY HAVE
A CERTAIN MINIMUM THAT IS SUB
SITUATE DIED BE AT THIS
GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF THE BASE
CARE BUT THEN EVERYBODY ELSE
BUYS THEIR OWN PRIVATE INSURANCE
AND THEY -- THATAL
CAPITAL OF THE INSURANCE COMPANY
IF THEY ARE CHERRY PICKING THEY
HAVE A MARKET FORCE THAT IS
ACTUALLY DISCIPLINED WHEN YOU
LOOK AT HEALTHCARE IN OUR
COUNTRY, ONE IN $3, $850 BILLION
A YEAR THAT WE SPEND ON
HEALTHCARE DOESN'T HELP ANYBODY
GET WELL, DOESN'T KEEP THEM FROM
GETTING SICK.
WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD SYSTEM.
AND I APPLAUD THEM FOR WANTING
TO FIX IT.
WHAT WE JUST DID WITH THE
AFFORDABLE CARE ACT WAS ACTUALLY
MAKE IT WORSE.
>> Rose: AND ANYTHING YOU CAN
DO ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF EXPENSE
AND COSTS OF MEDICARE THAT IS
SPENT IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS OF
LIFE?
>> SURE YOU CAN.
IF YOU RECONNECT THAT TO
PERSONAL PAYMENT WHAT WE HAVE
DONE IS DISCONNECT -- EVERYBODY
IN THIS COUNTRY THAT HAS
INSURANCE, MEDICARE AND MEDICAID
THEY THINK SOMEBODY ELSE IS
PAYING THE BILL AND WHAT WE DO
KNOW IF YOU ARE SPENDING
SOMEBODY ELSE'S MONEY ON YOU,
YOU SPEND IT DIFFERENT THAN IF
YOU THINK YOU ARE SPENDING YOUR
OWN MONEY ON YOU, SO WE HAVE NO
FORCE OF CONSUMER -- I HAVE I
USE THE EXAMPLE OF THE AMISH, I
DELIVERED 400 AMISH BABIES, NONE
OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE COLLEGE
EDUCATION AND VERY BRIGHT
PEOPLE.
>> Rose: THE AMISH COMMUNITY.
THERE IS A IS AN AMISH COMMUNITY
IN NORTHEASTERN OKLAHOMA, WHEN
THEY COME TO SEE ME AS A
PHYSICIAN, THEY ARE FULLY LOADED
TO MAKE SURE THEY GET VALUE.
>> Rose: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN
FULLY LOADED.
>> THAT MEANS THEY ASK
QUESTIONS, THEY WANT TO KNOW WHY
WE ARE DOING SOMETHING, THEY
WANT TO KNOW WHERE THEY CAN GET
IT DONE CHEAPER, THEY WANT TO
KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IF WE DON'T DO
THIS, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE
FULLY ENGAGED PURCHASER OF THEIR
HEALTHCARE AND THE REASON IS,
THEY PAY THE BILL, THEY DON'T
THINK SOMEBODY ELSE IS PAYING
THEIR BILL AND WE HAVE LOST THAT
ASPECT OF 95 PERCENT OF OUR
HEALTHCARE.
WE HAVE LOST IT.
AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT ECONOMIC
--
>> R COST
CONTAINMENT BUILT INTO THE OBAMA
--. THERE IS NO COST
CONTAINMENT ANYWHERE.
>> Rose: IN HEALTHCARE?
>> IN HEALTHCARE.
WE HAD THE SDR, THE SUSTAINABLE
GROWTH RATE FORMULA, CONGRESS
HAS NEVER DONE IT ONCE.
>> Rose: BUT THE
ADMINISTRATION HAS CONSISTENTLY
ARGUED THAT IT IS DEFICIT
NEUTRAL.
>> THAT'S WRONG.
AND THEY KNOW IT'S WRONG.
AND THEY WILL PRIVATELY ADMIT TO
YOU IT IS WRONG.
IT IS NOT ACCURATE, IT IS
$2.6 TRILLION THE FIRST TEN
YEARS THAT IT IS FULLY
IMPLEMENTED AND ADDITIONAL COSTS
TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, EVEN THE
CEO SAYS THAT, THOSE ARE MY
NUMBERS, THOSE AREN'T MY
NUMBERS.
NOBODY CAN LOOK AT IT PLAINLY
AND SAY IT IS NEUTRAL, IF YOU
GIVE THE STATES THE OPPORTUNITY
TO EXPERIMENT WITH MEDICAID YOU
CAN SAVE MONEY THERE, YOU CAN
SAVE ABOUT 500 BILLION OVER TEN
YEARS.
>> Rose: ARE THE STATES
PREPARED TO TAKE ON THAT
RESPONSIBILITY?
>> SURE THEY WOULD RATHER DO IT
THAN WHAT IS COMING TO THEM NOW.
IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE
THINGS.
>> Rose: THEY ARE FEARED WITH
INCURRING MORE RESPONSIBILITY.
>> THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS BEING
PILED ON THEM, THEY DON'T GET A
RUN, THERE IS A MANDATE AND
MAINTENANCE OF EFFORT, IF YOU
LOOK AT SOME OF THE WONDERFUL
THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE
STATES, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT
NORTH CAROLINA DID IN TERMS OF
MEDICAL HOMES FOR THEIR
MEDICAID, IN OTHER WORDS THEY
GOT, HAD TO GET A WAVE TO DO
THAT, A WAIVER TO DO THAT, MOST
OF THE STATES CAN'T GET A WAVE
TORE DO THAT, WHERE THEY HAVE
ACTUALLY IMPROVED COSTS,
IMPROVED OUT COMES WITH PEOPLE
WITH CHRONIC DISEASE, IN OTHER
WORDS, NOT ALL WISDOM IS IN
WASHINGTON.
>> Rose: BUT BACK TO THE RYAN
PUNISHMENT, THE PRESIDENT HAS
CALLED THE RYAN BUDGET SOCIAL
DARWINISM, RADICAL, AND YOU ARE
SAYING I WILL DO MORE THAN THE
RYAN BUDGET.
>> YES.
WHAT IS RADICAL.
>> Rose: I WILL DO TWICE AS
MUCH.
>> WHAT THE PRESIDENT RAISES,.
>> Rose: IN IS WHAT THE
PRESIDENT SAYS, EFFECTIVELY
SAYING LOOK THEY ARE GOING TO
FIX THE BUDGET ON THE BACKS OF
POOR PEOPLE.
>> THAT IS NOT TRUE.
LET ME GIVE YOU THE CON
TRUCT IN
THE OPPOSITE, IF WE DO NOT GET
OUR ACT TOGETHER, THE PEOPLE
THAT ARE GOING TO SUFFER ARE
THOSE VERY POOR PEOPLE.
AND WE ARE GOING TO WIPE OUT OUR
MIDDLE CLASS.
AND EVEN THE VERY WEALTHY WILL
SURVIVE AT A LOWER LEVEL.
THEY WILL MAKE IT AND BE FINE,
BUT THE POOR -- THE VERY PEOPLE
THAT MY COMPASSIONATE LIBERAL
FRIENDS ALWAYS DEFEND BY NOT
ACTING AND NOT ACCOMPLISHING
THIS ARE THE VERY PEOPLE THAT
ARE GOING TO SUFFER.
>> Rose: THE STATE WILL NOT BE
ABLE TO MAINTAIN ITS OBLIGATION
TO THEM?
>> WE WON'T.
>> Rose: BECAUSE WE WILL BE
BROKE.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
ANYBODY THAT TELLS A MEDICARE
PATIENT TODAY MEDICARE WON'T
CHANGE, EVERYTHING IS GOING TO
BE JUST THE SAME FIVE YEARS FROM
NOW IS TELLING THEM AN UNTRUTH.
IT IS A FISCAL IMPOSSIBILITY FOR
US --
>> Rose: HAVE YOU SEEN A
REASONABLE PROPOSAL FOR CUTTING
ENTITLE ITS, ENTITLEMENTS FROM
THE ADMINISTRATION.
>> NO NEVER.
>> DO YOU THINK THE PROPOSAL
FROM RYAN IS REASONABLE?
>> IT IS REASONABLE TO SEND US
ON THE WAY TO GETTING HEALTHY, I
THINK IT TAKES TOO LONG, BUT,
YES, I WOULD VOTE FOR IT.
THE SOONER WE SOLVE THIS
PROBLEM THE MORE ECONOMIC GROWTH
THERE IS GOING TO BE.
IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU WANT --
WHAT I HOPE FOR OUR COUNTRY IS
WHAT I SAW GROWING UP, A VIBRANT
ECONOMICALLY BOUNTIFULLY COUNTRY
THAT IS REWARDING RISK TAKING,
REWARDING HARD WORK, REWARDING
PRODUCTIVITY AND IT DOESN'T
MATTER FROM WHICH CLASS YOU
CAME, YOU CAN COME AND YOU CAN
GROW.
>> Rose: THERE ARE 100 UNITED
STATES SENATORS, HOW MANY
SENATORS WOULD SAY, I AM
PREPARED TO DO EVERYTHING, MOST
OF THE STUFF THAT COBURN
RECOMMENDS?
>> TEN.
>> Rose: TEN?
>> YES.
>> DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS.
>> TEN REPUBLICANS.
>> Rose: TEN REPUBLICANS.
>> YES.
>> WHO ARE THEY? CAN YOU TELL
ME?
>> I DON'T WANT TO COMMIT THEM.
>> Rose: FAIR ENOUGH.
>> Rose: YOU SAY TEN MORE ON
THE SAME PAGE.
>> TEN AT LEAST, BUT THE POINT
IS, AND I WOULD MAKE --
>> Rose: TEN OUT OF --
>> WELL, BUT REMEMBER, LET'S --
>> Rose: 90 PEOPLE SAYING I
CAN'T GO THERE.
>> LET'S GO BACK TO THE OTHER
THEME OF THIS BOOK IS WE ARE
SHORT-TERM THINKERS AND
POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT SPEAKERS.
>> Rose: AND EVERYBODY AGREES
WITH THAT, EVERYBODY.
>> SO WHY WOULD IT BE SURPRISING
TO YOU ONLY TEN PEOPLE WOULD
SHOVEL ALL OF THAT OFF AND SAY,
I WANT TO FIX THE COUNTRY?
THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS TO FIX
THE COUNTRY I AM JUST GIVING
ONE, BUT WHAT -- MY WARNING TO
AMERICA IS, IF WE DON'T WAKE UP,
WE WILL GET TO A POINT OF NO
RETURN.
>> Rose DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT
GOVERNOR ROMNEY WANTS TO GO
SUPPORTIVE WILL FIX THE COUNTRY?
>> IT WILL PUT IT WELL ON ITS
WAY TO SOLVING THE PROBLEMS.
AND.
>> Rose: AND THE PROPOSALS OF
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES, HIS ECONOMIC PROPOSALS
--
>> HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY ECONOMIC
PROPOSALS OTHER THAN A HIT AND A
MISS AND ONE HERE AND ONE HERE
AND ONE HERE.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
WHEN YOU ARE BOXING WITH
SOMEBODY THAT IS IN THE RING AND
THEY ARE A GHOST AND
--
>> Rose: YOU CARE SO MUCH
ABOUT CUTTING, ABOUT DEALING
WITH THE DEBT BOMB, WHY DON'T
YOU FAVOR THE ELIMINATION OF THE
BUSH TAX CUTS?
>> Rose: AND LET THEM EXPIRE
AND JUST NOT RENEW THEM?
>> I THINK WE OUGHT TO TOTALLY
REVAMP OUR TAX CODE.
>> Rose: RIGHT.
>> I VOTED AGAINST THE EXTENSION
OF THEM THIS LAST TIME BECAUSE
THEY WEREN'T PAID FOR.
I WASN'T IN THE SENATE WHEN THEY
CAME IN, SO I DIDN'T HAVE AN
OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE FOR THEM BUT
WHEN THERE CAME A CHANCE TO
EXTEND THEM, I VOTED AGAINST IT.
>> Rose: BECAUSE WE NEED THE
REVENUE?
>> WELL, NOT BECAUSE WE -- IF
YOU ARE GOING TO EXTEND THE TAX
CUT YOU OUGHT TO OFFSET SOME OF
THE WASTEFUL SPENDING WE HAVE IN
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO PAY
FOR IT.
THAT IS WHAT --
>> Rose: SO YOU BETTER FIND
SOME SPENDING --
>> THAT'S RIGHT, THAT IS WHAT
SWEDEN HAS DONE SO SUCCESSFUL
THE LAST TWO OR THREE YEARS.
>> WHAT HA SWEDEN DONE?
>> THEY TOO MUCH A, TOOK AN
APPROACH DIFFERENT THAN THE EU
WHEN WE HIT THIS ROUGH PATCH IN
THE WORLD ECONOMY AND THEY SAID
WE ARE GOING TO CUT SPENDING,
EVEN DOWN TO SOME THINGS THAT LC
CLASS, BUT WE ARE GOING TO
REFORM OUR TAX CODE TO THE SAME
AMOUNT SO THAT WE CHANGE THE TAX
CODE AND GIVE PEOPLE CONFIDENCE
THAT THEY CAN INVEST CAPITAL AND
WHAT IT HAS BEEN IS A GRAND
EXPERIMENT THAT ACTUALLY WORKED
WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DID IN
MEAN 20 AND 1921 IN THIS
COUNTRY, AND WE DIDN'T -- WE HAD
A ONE AND A HALF YEAR RECESSION,
WHERE THE GDP ACTUALLY DECLINED
24 PERCENT IN ONE YEAR.
>> Rose: HOW WOULD YOU REFORM
THE TAX CODE?
>> I WOULD FLATTEN ITS BASE.
>> Rose: TO?
>> BROADEN IT WAY OUT.
>> Rose: A FLAT TAX?
>> I WOULD FLATTEN IT OUT TO TWO
OR THREE PROPOSALS, TWO OR THREE
TAX RATES AND ELIMINATE THE VAST
MAJORITY OF THE DEDUCTIONS.
I WOULD ELIMINATE.
>> Rose: CORPORATE AND
PERSONAL?
>> CORPORATE AND PERSONAL, I
WOULD ELIMINATE, TAX, OFFSHORE
TAX HAVENS WOULD BE ELIMINATED.
>> 75 PERCENT OF THE MORTGAGE
TAX DEDUCTION IS TAKEN BY THE
VERY WEALTHY IN THIS COUNTRY
RIGHT NOW.
75 PERCENT.
>> Rose: WOULD YOU ELIMINATE A
DEDUCTION FOR A SECOND HOME?
>> YES.
>> Rose: OKAY.
>> AND YACHTS, LUXURY YACHTS,
THERE ARE A LOT OF IT, YOU THINK
ABOUT IT THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS NOT PAID IN
TAXES BECAUSE SOMEBODY HAS A
MORTGAGE ON A YACHT, I MEAN, I
PUT OUT A DEAL ON THE SUBSIDIES
FOR THE RICH AND FAMOUS, AND IT
IS ABOUT 30 BILLION A YEAR, WELL
I WOULD ELIMINATE MOST OF THAT,
THE POINT IS, IS LET'S HAVE A
TAX CODE THAT REFLECT, THE OTHER
POINT I WOULD DO IS MAKE SURE
EVERYBODY PAID TAXES, EVERYBODY.
>> Rose: THAT IS ENFORCEMENT?
>> NO, NO.
I WOULD MAKE THE CODE WHERE NO
MATTER WHERE YOU ARE, EVERYBODY
HAS SOME PARTICIPATION IN THE
RUNNING OF THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE EVERYBODY
HAS SOME BENEFIT FROM IT.
>> Rose: WHAT WOULD BE THE
HARD CALLS FOR YOU? WHERE ARE
YOU PREPARED TO SAY, I DON'T --
I HAVE A HARD TIME DOING THIS,
BUT I AM RECOMMENDING IT BECAUSE
WE NEED TO DO IT, OTHERWISE THE
DEBT BOMB EXPLODES?
>> I ACTUALLY BELIEVE MARKETS
WORK, AND IF YOU HAVE A SIMPLE
TRANSPARENT TAX CODE, THAT IS
EASY -- YOU KNOW, WE SPEND
$300 BILLION A YEAR PAYING OUR
TAXES? WE PRODUCE NO WEALTH OUT
OF THAT.
THAT IS AS MUCH AS WE SHIP OUT
OF THIS COUNTRY TO BUY FOREIGN
OIL.
THAT IS HOW MUCH WE SPEND A YEAR
PAYING OUR TAXES, AND --
>> Rose: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
PAYING YOUR TAXES?
>> THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE PAYING
YOUR ACCOUNTANTS TO PREPARE YOUR
TABS, THE BILLS FOR TAX
PREPARATION IS OUT -- IT IS OUT
OF THIS WORLD.
>> Rose: WHAT WOULD YOU DO
ABOUT THAT?
>> I WOULD MAKE IT SIMPLE.
>> Rose: SIMPLE S YOU DON'T
NEED A TAX PREPARER.
>>
>> DAN COATS AND --
>> THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF GUYS
DO IT, THE POINT I WOULD SAY TO
YOU IS, THERE ARE PLENTY OF
ANSWERS TO OUR PROBLEMS, THERE
AR THERE IS IS A LACK OF
LEADERSHIP GETTING THERE.
>> Rose: AND IT IS BIPARTISAN?
>> WE SHOULD BE STANDING UP AND
SAY HERE IS OUR PLAN AND TAKE IT
ON THE CHIN.
WHAT HAPPENS IS POLITICIANS
DON'T WANT TO STAND UP AND LEAD
BECAUSE IT CREATES A
VULNERABILITY THEIR OPPOSITION
CAN COME IN AND SAY, SEE, I TOLD
YOU SO.
PAUL RYAN SUGGESTED PREMIUM
SUPPORT THE FIRST AD YOU SAW THE
NEXT CAMPAIGN.
>> Rose: VOUCHER.
>> YEAH, WELL IT IS A PREMIUM
SUPPORT WHERE YOU CAN ACTUALLY
GET -- IT IS NOT A VOUCHER, YOU
--
>> Rose: THAT WAS A --
>> BUT THE FIRST AD TO COME
ABOUT WAS PAUL RYAN, LOOKED
LIKE, WHEELING A LADY OFF A
CLIFF IN A WHEELCHAIR THE POINT
IS TELL ME WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO
THE POLITICIAN INFORMATION THIS
COUNTRY, IS IT GETTING ELECTED
AND PROTECTING THEIR PAROCHIAL
INTERESTS OR FIXING WHAT IS
WRONG WITH THE COUNTRY? AND I
THINK WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS WE
HAVE GOTTEN TOTALLY OFF CENTER
IN TERMS OF WHAT IS REALLY
IMPORTANT SO OUR COUNTRY AND I
THINK WE DON'T GIVE THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE MUST HAVE CREDIT.
>> Rose: OKAY, BUT DO YOU
THINK THERE WAS A PERIOD IN OUR
HISTORY IN WHICH WE CHANGE THAT
BECAUSE A LOT LOT OF PEOPLE, WHO
WANT TO BE STATESMEN REALIZE
THEY FIRST HAVE TO BE ELECTED.
AND WANT TO GET RE-ELECTED.
>> AND THE ANSWER TO THAT IS
YOUR RATIONALIZATION IS, I WANT
TO GET RE-ELECTED SO THAT I CAN
DO SOMETHING WELL, AS SOON AS
THEY GET RE-ELECTED IS, I CAN'T
DO SOMETHING WELL, WELL BECAUSE
I HAVE TO G RE-ELECTED AGAIN
AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE IN TERM
LIMITS SO STRONGLY, BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, I AM NOT EVER RUNNING FOR
ELECTION AGAIN.
I AM SELF TERM --
>> Rose: WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN
PROPOSING THIS IF YOU WERE
RERUNNING.
>> YES, I WOULD BECAUSE THAT IS
KIND OF MY NATURE.
I AM PROPOSING MOST OF THIS
BEFORE I RAN FOR REELECTION AND
I THOUGHT LONG AND HARD ABOUT
WHETHER I WOULD RUN FOR
REELECTION AND I ACTUALLY MADE A
COMMITMENT I MADE TO THE
COMMITMENT TO OKLAHOMA.
>> Rose: THAT YOU WOULD BE
RUNNING FOR REELECTION?
>> NO, I WOULD NOT BE RUNNING
FOR REELECTION.
>> Rose: EVEN IF YOU MADE THE
COMMITNT RUNNING
FOR REELECTION? BECAUSE YOU
WANT TO DO.
>> BECAUSE I BELIEVE WHAT IS
WRONG WITH US IN WASHINGTON IS
WE HAVE BEEN THERE TOO LONG.
>> Rose: THE TERM LIMITS IS A
PROBLEM?
>> I THINK IT IS AN ABSOLUTE
PROBLEM, I ABSOLUTELY DO.
IS WE BECOME MILLCALLY
EXPEDIENT, OUR PARTISANSHIP
GROWS.
>> Rose: MORE POWER AND
THEREFORE YOU WANT MORE POWER
AND GET MORE POWER BY STAYING
THERE.
>> I PUT THE QUOTE IN FROM
LINCOLN IF YOU WANT TO TEST A
MAN'S CHARACTER, GIVE HIM POWER
AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING TODAY,
THIS LACK OF ACTION ON THE
BIGGEST PREDICTABLE CRISIS OUR
COUNTRY WILL EVER FACE, YOU
KNOW, ADMIRAL MULLEN SAID IT IS
BIGGER THAN THE THREAT OF ISLAM
TERRORISM.
>> Rose:.
>> IT IS THE NUMBER ONE NATIONAL
SECURITY ISSUE, AND WHY HAVE WE
NOT ADDRESSED IT? NOBODY IN
AMERICA CAN ANSWER THAT
QUESTION.
>> Rose: POLITICS, "MONEY AND
POLITICS".
>> POLITICS.
POWER, THE PURSUIT OF POWER,
PURSUIT OF PARTISAN ADVANTAGE,
AND WE HAVE PUT THE COUNTRY
SECOND AND OUR POLITICAL PARTIES
IN OUR POLITICAL CAREERS AHEAD
OF US.
>> Rose: IF YOU FEEL ABOUT THE
COUNTRY THE WAY YOU DO, DID YOU
FOR A MOMENT CONSIDER RUNNING
FOR PRESIDENT? FOR A
MOMENT.
>> OF OH I HAD SOME THOUGHTS OF
IT BUT I HAVE A WONDERFUL
MARRIAGE OF ALMOST 44 YEARS, AND
I AM NOT ABOUT TO GET RETRAINED
BY ANOTHER WIFE, AND SO --
>> Rose: SHE WOULD HAVE LEFT
YOU?
>> WELL IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
TOUGH.
I HAD SOME THARTS THOUGHTS I HAD
SOME PEOPLE TO ENCOURAGE ME.
>> Rose: SURE THEY DID, BUT IT
IS NOT WHAT I AM WELL SUITED
FOR, WHAT I AM WELL SUITED FOR
IS WHAT I AM DOING RIGHT NOW, WE
HAVE EXPOSED $350 BILLION A YEAR
IN WASTE.
>> Rose: THERE ARE OTHER
PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN TRYING TO
DO THE SAME THING, YOU HAVE
PETE, PETERSON, IN A COALITION
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING
THE FISCAL POLICY IS INSANE.
>> YES.
>> Rose: BECAUSE OF THE DEBT,
BECAUSE OF THE DEFICIT AND THEY
LOOK BACK, AND --
>> WELL, PETE PETER ON IS
PROPHETIC, HE WROTE A BOOK IN
1993 AND HE DESCRIBED EXACTLY
WHERE WE ARE TODAY AND WHAT IS
GETTING READY TO HAPPEN TO US.
>> Rose: AND SAID WE WON'T DO
ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
>> YEAH.
AND I ACTUALLY READ HIS BOOK
WHEN I RAN FOR THE SENATE THE
FIRST TIME, AND I CARRIED IT
EVERYWHERE I WAS, AND I TOLD THE
PEOPLE OF OKLAHOMA, I WILL NOT
BRING ONE THING HOME TO OKLAHOMA
UNTIL WE HAVE SOLVED THE
PROBLEMS IN WASHINGTON.
>> Rose: GIVE ME A COALITION
OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVE THIS
-- ARE YOU AND BOWLS ON THE SAME
PAGE.
>> WHERE.
>> Rose: YOU AND WALKER.
>> YES.
>> YOU AND PETE PETERSON?
>> YES.
>> HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE
THIS -- WHY --
>> THOSE PEOPLE SEE THE BIG
PICTURE, THE DISEASE, AND THEY
ARE NOT CLOUDED BY THE POLITICS
OF IT.
>> THEY ARE NOT CLOUDED THEY ARE
LOOKING AT WHERE AMERICA STANDS
TODAY, AND THIS TREMENDOUS
WEIGHT THAT HAS BEEN PUT AROUND
OUR NECK AND WE ARE OUT ON THE
PLANK, AND WE ARE NOT VERY FAR
FROM WHERE THE POINT WHERE THE
BOARD BREAKS.
>> Rose: DAVID BROOKS HAD A
COLUMN TODAY I THINK IT WAS AND
BASICALLY HE ARGUED WHEN YOU ARE
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT YOU HAVE
THREE OR FOUR CHOICES, NUMBER
CHOOSE TO
BE, TO RUN IN TERMS OF VERY
ASPIRATIONAL AS A PRESIDENT HAS
DONE, NUMBER 2, YOU CAN, IF THAT
IS NOT WHAT YOU HAVE AS A TALENT
YOU CAN RISE PRESIDENT IN 2008,
YOU CAN RUN AS RICHARD NIXON SAY
AND I I DON'T HAVE I AM NOT
CHARISMATIC BUT I AM A PLUMBER
AND I AM GOING TO FIX THINGS.
EXCUSE THE PUN.
I AM GOING TO FIX THINGS.
HE SAID NUMBER 3, YOU CAN RUN
AND TEAR DOWN THE OTHER GUY AND
THAT IS WHAT OUR POLITICS HAVE
COME TO.
>> YEAH.
>> Rose:.
>> IT IS THE POLITICS OF
DIVISION, THE POLITICS OF
DIVISION AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE
NOT DEALING WITH THIS, BECAUSE
EVERYBODY WANTS TO TEAR
EVERYBODY ELSE DOWN.
>> A WHAT THAT IS, THAT IS NO
LEADERSHIP.
I WOULD MUCH RATHER RUN A RACE
TALKING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
AS ADULTS HERE ARE OUR REAL
PROBLEMS, HERE IS THE RANGE OF
SOLUTIONS THAT WE HAVE FOR THEM.
THEY HAVE TO BE IN THE RIGHT
COMBINATION TO ACTUALLY SOLVE
THE PROBLEM, AND GET A MANDATE
TO FIX WHAT AILS THE COUNTRY,
AND LOSE THAN CONTINUE TO LIE TO
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT THE
SEVERITY OF THE PROBLEMS THIS
COUNTRY FACES.
I BELIEVE WE CAN CHANGE HISTORY
BUT I BELIEVE WE NEED REAL
LEADERSHIP.
>> Rose: DO YOU BELIEVE
SOMEBODY CAN ENTER THE
REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, MAKING THE
ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE HERE AND HAVE
ONE --
>> YES.
>> Rose: WON THE NOMINATION.
>> YES.
WITHOUT A DOUBT.
>> Rose: WHO.
>> Rose: WHY ARE YOU SO
CONFIDENT?
>> BECAUSE I AM CONFIDENT
EVERYWHERE I GO --
>> Rose: REFORMING THE TAX
CODE IN THE WAY YOU HAVE
SUGGESTED.
>> REFORMING ENTITLE.S AND YOU
ALSO SAID YOU ARE IN FAVOR ..
YOU SAID AS JOHN BOEHNER SAID TO
ME I AM PREPARED, WAS PREPARED
TO DO SOMETHING ON THE REVENUE
SIDE.
>> YES THERE IS NO QUESTION WE
HAVE TO INCREASE THE REVENUES
FROM THE VERY WEALTHY IN THIS
COUNTRY, BUT THE ONLY WAY WE ARE
EVER GOING TO DO THAT, THE ONLY
WAY YOU ARE EVER GOING TO
BALANCE THAT IS TO GET
ENTITLEMENT REFORM AND ASSURANCE
WE WON'T BRO THE GOVERNMENT WITH
THAT INCREASED REVENUE.
>> Rose: SO THAT IS THE FEAR
YOU, IN FACT ENHANCE REVENUE, DO
WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO TO
INCREASE REVENUE, TO DEAL WITH
IT, THAT SOMEHOW PEOPLE IN
CONGRESS ARE GOING TO SPEND THAT
MONEY AND NOT CUT SPENDING.
>> THEY ALWAYS HAVE.
>> Rose: THAT'S THE ARGUMENT
THAT IS MADE.
>> THEY ALWAYS HAVE.
YOU REALIZE WHEN THE BUSH TAX
CUTS, ESPECIALLY 2003, GONE IN,
HAD THEY REDUCED SPENDING BY THE
AMOUNT OF THOSE TAX CUTS, WE
WOULD BE CLOSE TO SURPLUS RIGHT
NOW? IN OUR FEDERAL BUDGET?
>> Rose: WELL, ALSO, I MEAN IF
YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE BUSH TAX
CUTS, THE LEVEL OF TAXATION
WOULD BE BACK DURING THE CLINTON
ADMINISTRATION WHEN THE ECONOMY
WAS BROGUE.
>> YEAH, YEAH.
BUT REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, ONE
CAVEAT TO THAT IS, WE DID HAVE A
TECH BUBBLE IN 2000 2001 THAT
REMARKEDLY INCREASED THAT WHAT
WE DON'T REALIZE THE REASON WE
WERE SATISFACTORILY IN THE
CLINTON ADMINISTRATION IS FOR
THE FIRST TIME SINCE WORLD WAR
II THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS DID A
RESCISSION BILL ON SPENDING AND
ACTUALLY CUT $60 BILLION OUT OF
SPENDING IN 19 IN '95, IN OTHER
WORDS, FEDERAL SPENDING ON THE
DISCRETIONARY AND DEFENSE SIDE
ACTUALLY WENT DOWN, NOT UP.
>> Rose: OKAY.
>>
>> Rose: THEY CUT TAXES IN
IRELAND, WHAT HAPPENED?
>> WELL, THEY GOT A BOON, THEY
WENT --
>> Rose: BUT THEN THEY HAD A
CRASH.
>> THEY HAD A CRASH BECAUSE THEY
DID THE SAME THING WE DID, THEY
HAD A REAL ESTATE BUBBLE, THOSE
TWO THINGS ARE NOT CONNECTED,
THOSE TWO THE ARE NOT CONNECTED
THEY HAD A REAL ESTATE BUBBLE
WHICH --
>> Rose: IS THE REAL ESTATE
BUBBLE SAY ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT
MARKETS AND IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR
IN MARKETS?
>> SURE, THERE ARE IRRATIONAL
BEHAVIOR, BUT REMEMBER, WE
INCITED WIT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.
IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE SOMEBODY THAT
WOULD GUARANTEE ALL OF THIS
STUFF, YOU WOULDN'TN'T.
>> Rose: FREDDIE MAC AND
FANNIE MAE.
>> FHA YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE SEEN
IT.
WE CREATED THAT, THAT IS THE ONE
THING IN THE DODD FRANK WE
DIDN'T FIX.
AGAIN, IS IT THE ROLE OF
GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO DIRECT THE
ECONOMY OR WILL ADAM SMITH'S
INVISIBLE HAND ACTUALLY, DO
MARKETS WORK? THEY ARE NOT
PERFECT, BUT THEY ARE BETTER
THAN ANY OTHER SYSTEM THAT WE
HAVE EVER SEEN IN TERMS OF
ELEVATING THE MOST NUMBER OF
PEOPLE.
>> Rose: BUT YOUR ARGUMENT FOR
CREATING GROWTH TODAY, FOR
CREATING GROWTH TODAY, IS TO CUT
TAXES AND CUT SPENDING.
RIGHT?
>> THAT IS HOW YOU CREATE
GROWTH? NOW THAT IS EXACTLY THE
OPPOSITE FROM WHAT, IN FACT,
PAUL CRUISING MAN IS SAYING, HE
SAID LAST NIGHT YOU HAVE TO HAVE
GROWTH AND YOU CAN'T DO IT BY AN
AUSTERITY PROGRAM AN HE LOOKS
WHAT HAPPENED IN EUROPE AND IT
SAYS IT PROVED MY CASE YOU HAVE
A LIVE EXPERIMENT RIGHT NOW.
>> THE OPPOSITE PROVES MY CASE.
>> THEY DID THE OPPOSITE, THEY
DID THE AUSTERITY AND THE
ECONOMY --
>> YOU ARE USING ONE WORD
AUSTERITY TO IMPLY THEY DIDN'T
CUT TAXES THEY DIDN'T CUT TAXES
THEY RAISED TACKS THEY CUT
SPENDING AND RAISED TAXES TO A
BIG WHAMMY ON THEIR ECONOMY IN
TERMS OF FINAL DEMAND.
RIGHT? SO WHAT I AM SAYING IS
YOU CUT TAXES.
>> Rose: AND YOU SAY PRIMARILY
BY REDUCING DEDUCTIONS.
>> RIGHT.
AND YOU CUT SPENDING.
WHAT WE LACK IN OUR COUNTRY
TODAY IS WE HAVE GOT A GREAT
COUNTRY, WE LACK CONFIDENCE
ABOUT THE FUTURE.
I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANXIETY HIGHER
IN THIS COUNTRY IN MY 64 YEARS I
HAVE NEVER SEEN IT AND I HAVEN'T
BEEN ON THE NATIONAL SCENE ALL
THAT LONG BUT I HAVE BEEN OUT
THERE IN BOTH BUSINESS AND IN
MEDICINE AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
I HAVE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE WITH SO
LITTLE CONFIDENCE IN OUR
COUNTRY, AND I BLAME THAT ON
BOTH PARTIES.
IS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THINKING
LONG-TERM, WE ARE NOT MODELING
THE BEHAVIOR THAT GIVES PEOPLE
CONFIDENCE.
AND CONFIDENCE IS THE KEY FROM
COMING OUT OF RECESSIONS.
>> Rose: JUST ONE MORE TIME ON
THIS, BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO
ARGUE ALSO, YOU KNOW, THAT WE
HAVE TO BE COMPETITIVE, AND
UNLESS WE MAKE INVESTMENTS WHICH
ARE -- WHICH IS SPENDING,
INVESTMENTS IN THE FUTURE, RIGHT
NOW, THEN WE WILL LOSE OUR
PLACE, BECAUSE OUR EDUCATION
SYSTEM IS GOING DOWN, AND IN
COMPARISON -- IT IS GOING DOWN
AS YOU KNOW.
>> LET'S STUDY THAT FOR A
MINUTE.
LET'S LOOK --
>> Rose: LET'S UNPACK THAT,
ALREADY.
>> YES, LET'S UNPACK THAT.
WE SPENT OVER $2 TRILLION
THROUGH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
ON EDUCATION, OVER THE PAST FOUR
YEARS.
TEACHER, STUDENT RATIOS ARE AT
THE LOWEST LEVEL THEY HAVE EVER
BEEN.
THE NUMBER OF ADMINISTRATORS, TO
STUDENTS IS AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL
IT HAS EVER BEEN, THERE IS NOT
ONE PARAMETER IN THIS COUNTRY
THAT IS BETTER.
TELL ME HOW GOOD WE HAVE DONE IN
IT.
>> Rose: SO WE SPENT, SO WE
SPENT MONEY ON EDUCATION,
UNWISELY?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
BECAUSE WE ARE MANDATING IT FROM
A CENTRAL GOVERNMENT THAT HAS NO
IDEA WHAT THE NEEDS ARE.
>> Rose: YEAH.
>> AND SO -- AND SO IF
WHAT,-EVEN THOUGH IT MAY ONLY BE
30 PERCENT OF A LOCAL SCHOOL
DISTRICT BUDGET IT IS ALL THE
HOOPS THEY HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH.
WHO CARES MORE ABOUT A STUDENT'S
EDUCATION? THE LOCAL TEACHER
THERE AND THE PARENT AND MAYBE
THE PTA --
>> Rose: ARE YOU GOING ABOLISH
THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?
>> THOMAS JEFFERSON SAID IF YOU
WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN
EDUCATION, YOU HAVE TO CHANGE
THE CONSTITUTION, HERE IS ONE OF
THE WRITERS OF THE CONSTITUTION,
HE SAID FOR THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT TO BE IN IT YOU HAVE
TO HAVE AN AMENDMENT TO THE
CONSTITUTION TO ALLOW THEM TO DO
THAT.
THAT IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF "WE
ARE FAILING.
IS WE HAVE IGNORED THE VERY IDEA
OF A LIMITED GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE
SPREAD OUT, AND WE ARE NOT
EFFECTIVE.
THERE ARE WONDERFUL ROLES FOR
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
I WANT US -- I BELIEVE IN THE
ROLE OF GOVERNMENT.
IN MULTITUDE OF AREAS BUT THE
AREAS WE HAVE GOTTEN INTO, WE
ARE NOT EFFECTIVE --
>> Rose: LET ME ASK THIS
BECAUSE THIS OUGHT TO BE PART OF
THE DEBATE, WHERE YOU BELIEVE IN
THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT?
CERTAINLY IN NATIONAL SECURITY
AND THAT IS CLEARLY.
>> IN OUR COURTS AND --
>> Rose: INVESTMENTS --
>> WE CAN INVEST IN RESEARCH IN
AREAS THAT NOBODY COULD EVER DO,
AND SO WE OUGHT TO FUND HEAVILY
RESEARCH.
>> Rose: YOU WANT THE RAISE
THE BUDGET OF THE NATIONAL
INSTITUTE OF, NATIONAL INSTITUTE
OF HEALTH.
>> YOU WANT TO RAISE THEIR
BUDGET?
>> YES GIVE THEM MORE MONEY
BECAUSE THEY DO GOOD?
>> YES.
>> AND IT IS EFFICIENT?
>> IT IS EFFICIENT AND WE GET
ALL SORTS OF SECONDARY BENEFITS
OUT OF IT.
>> Rose: THAT IS A GOOD ROLE
OF GOT.
>> I WANT TO SEE OUR DEPARTMENT
OF ENERGY LAPSE.
>> Rose: DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
LAPSES.
>> YES.
>> Rose: FIND ALTERNATE FORMS
OF ENERGY.
>> THEY DID A LOT ZERO RESEARCH
AND RESEARCH FOR NASA WE NEED TO
BE THE FOUR-RUNNERS OF THE NEXT
GENERATION OF IDEAS.
A LOT OF THAT WILL COME --
>> Rose: AND IS THAT AT RISK
BECAUSE OF OUR FINANCIAL
SITUATION?
>> YES.
>> Rose: BECAUSE THERE IS
PRESSURE TO REDUCE THE BUDGET?
>> YES.
>> HOW ABOUT CULTURE? HOW ABOUT
THINGS THAT GOVERNMENT CAN DO TO
ENCOURAGE THE ARTS?
>> IT IS NOT OUR ROLE.
>> Rose: SO, NO?
>> NO.
>> Rose: NO MONEY FOR PBS, NO
MONEY FOR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
>> NO.
WELL, PBS, YOU KNOW THE NUMBERS
ON PBS, THEY DON'T NEED ANY
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HELP.
MY DAUGHTER IS AN OPERA SINGER
AND SHE LOVES THE ARTS AND
SUPPORT THE ARTS PRIVATELY,.
>> Rose: PRIVATE MONEY IS
ENOUGH?
>> FIND A ROLL ROLE IN THE
CONSTITUTION.
>> Rose: ARE YOU LIKE JUDGE
SCALIA IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT IN
THE CONSTITUTION --
>> NO, I THINK WHAT WE LACK IS
COMMON SENSE.
I DON'T THINK THERE IS A THIMBLE
FULL OF COMMON SENSE IN ALL OF
WASHINGTON.
AND I MEAN THAT SERIOUSLY.
>> Rose: ARE YOU SERIOUS?
>> I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT
HAVE GONE TO WASHINGTON AND --
>> IT IS MADE MANIFEST IN WHAT
WE DON'T DO.
>> Rose: I WILL GO BACK AND
ASK THE QUESTION.
LOOK AT THE SCOPE AND URGENCY OF
THE PROBLEMS IN FRONT OF US
TODAY.
EVERYBODY IN WASHINGTON --
>> Rose: LOSE DID WE LOSE IT
AT A PARTICULAR POINT?
>> I DON'T KNOW, I AM NOT A
HISTORIAN.
>> Rose: DID WE HAVE IT AFTER
WORLD WAR 2? WHERE WERE WE IN
GOOD SHAPE AFTER WORLD WAR 2.
>> AFTER WE SAW THE TREND, THE
VAST MAJORITY OF CONGRESS TO
STAY THERE FOREVER I THINK WE
LOST IT.
>> Rose: WELL, HERE IS THE
ARGUMENT THAT -- BACK TO OTHERS
MAKE, THAT AT THE GREAT
DEPRESSION, THE ONLY THING THAT
SAVED US FROM THE GREAT
DEPRESSION WAS THE WORLD WAR II.
>> UH-HUH.
>> Rose: THAT GAVE US A
COMMITMENT, AND AN URGENCY AND
SO, THEREFORE, THEY SPENT MONEY
AND THAT MON REININDUSTRY
RATED THE ECONOMY.
.. MONEY TO GO TO WAR.
>> YEAH, WE BORROWED THE MONEY
TO GO TO WAR. THERE IS NO
QUESTION.
>> Rose: DO WE NEED SOMETHING
LIKE THAT? SOME KIND OF
NATIONAL COMMITMENT?
>> WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING
YOU DO, BEFORE YOU SPEND MONEY
YOU DON'T HAVE, BORROW MORE
MONEY WE DON'T HAVE TO SPEND ON
THINGS WE DON'T NEED, IS TO
SPEND THE MONEY THAT WE ARE
SPENDING TODAY --
>> Rose: MUCH MORE WISELY?
YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE THOSE WHO,
WHETHER IT IS LARRY SUMMERS ALSO
HAS ARGUED THE POINT ABOUT
AUSTERITY PROGRAMS.
>> UH-HUH.
>> Rose: YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE
THAT CAIN HAD IT WRONG?
>> I THINK.
>> IS A MINIMAL EFFECT OF CAINS
YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT THE
LAST STIMULUS.
>> WHEN ECONOMIES ARE IN A
TERRIBLE TIME, THE WAY YOU COME
OUT OF THEM IS STIMULATING THE
ECONOMY WITH --
>> STIMULATING FINAL DEMAND.
>> Rose: EXACTLY.
>> SO.
>> Rose: GOVERNMENT HAS TO DO
IT, GOVERNMENT WILL DO IT, TO
GET THE ECONOMY BACK --
>> LET'S COMPARE TO 1920 TO 21
RECESSION WITH 1929, 1930
RECESSION, WHAT DID WE DO
DIFFERENT? THE FEDERAL RESERVE
DIDN'T ACTIVELY INTERCEDE LIKE
THEY DID IN 29 AND 30.
AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS IS WE LET
THE MARKET ACTUALLY WORK, IT WAS
PAINFUL, WE HAD A 24 PERCENT
DROP IN GDP IN ONE YEAR, WE HAD
14 PERCENT UNEMPLOYMENT.
WE HAD INFLATION AT TEN PERCENT.
AND BY THE NEXT YEAR AND A HALF,
IT HAD CURED ITSELF WITHOUT ANY
INTERVENTION.
AND WE GREW THROUGH THE ROARING
20S.
AND NOW TAKE THE DEPRESSION.
WHAT DID WE DO? WE MANIPULATED
THINGS FROM THE CENTRAL BANK, WE
DID ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS,
WE DID ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS,
AND IT LASTED TEN YEARS, UNTIL
WAR.
I MEAN T
COME OUT OF IT UNTIL THE WAR.
SO, YOU KNOW, TELL ME WHICH ONE
WORKS? THE FACT IS IF YOU
REALLY LET MARKETS WORK, THEY
ARE PAINFUL, THEY ARE NOT
PERFECT, IN TERMS OF ALLOCATING
RESOURCES, BUT WE WILL COME BACK
TO THE BASELINE FASTER, LEAVING
IT ALONE, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A
SAFETY NET, FOR THOSE VERY
UNFORTUNATE GROUPS THAT NEED OUR
HELP, AND IF YOU HAVE TO ADD
SOME SAFETY NET, DO IT, LET THE
SYSTEM WORK.
>> Rose: LET THE CAPITALISM
WORK AND A SAFETY NET.
>> SURE.
>> Rose: THE GOVERNMENT OWES
SOMETHING IN THOSE CASES?
>> YES AND I WOULD JUST -- ALL
THE READING I HAVE DONE AND ALL
THE STUDY I HAVE DONE, HERE IS
WHAT I AM CONVINCED OF AFTER
THIS WEEKEND, SPENT AN HOUR ON
THE PHONE WITH AN ECONOMIST THAT
I TRULY UNDERSTAND.
>> Rose: CAN YOU TELL ME WHO
IT WAS?
>> YEAH.
HE IS A SMART GUY.
HIS NAME IS KYLE BASS, HE IS IN
DALLAS.
NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN
OUR COUNTRY OR IN EUROPE LIKE
GREECE AND YOU ARE SEEING SPAIN
NOW AND YOU SAW IN THE
NETHERLANDS THE GOVERNMENT FALL
OVER AUSTERITY, NOTHING IS GOING
TO HAPPEN UNTIL THE PAIN OF NOT
FIXING IT IS WORSE THAN THE PAIN
OF FIXING IT.
AND THAT IS INTEREST RATES
RISING.
AND SO I DON'T REALLY EXPECT THE
LEADERS OF THIS COUNTRY TO GET
THE COURAGE TO DO WHAT IS
NECESSARY UNTIL THE PAIN OF
RISING INTEREST RATES COME AND
WHEN IT HAPPENS, IN 2,022, RIGHT
NOW WE ARE ON SCHEDULE THAT THE
ONLY THING THAT WILL BE IN THE
FEDERAL BUDGET.
>> Rose: IS INTEREST RATES?
>> INTEREST AND MEDICARE AND
SOCIAL SECURITY, AND JUST GOING
BACK TO OUR NORMAL INTEREST
RATES WHICH HAVE BEEN FALSELY
MANIPULATED BY THE FEDERAL
RESERVE, THEY CREATED
$3 TRILLION OF NEW MONEY,
$3 TRILLION OF NEW MONEY, WHAT
IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS WE ARE
GOING TO GO BACK TOWARDS
SIX PERCENT ON A TEN YEAR,
30-YEAR BOND, AND IT IS GOING TO
COST $650 BILLION A YEAR MORE
JUST FOR DEBT WE HAVE NOW.
AND NOBODY IS GOING TO DO
ANYTHING UNTIL THAT STARTS
HAPPENING AND YOU KNOW WHAT? BY
THEN, IT IS TOO LATE.
>> Rose: IS THERE A POINT
HAVING TO DO THIS IN A DIFFERENT
WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO
STOP BUYING OUR DEBT?
>> UH-HUH.
>> Rose: CHINA SPECIFICALLY?
>> WELL CHINA STOPPED BUYING
LAST YEAR.
>> Rose: I KNOW THEY DID.
>> THEY HAVE ONE --
>> Rose: BUT NOW IT IS
SELLING, THEY ARE NOT.
>> THEY SOLD $150 BILLION LAST
YEAR OF OUR DEBT.
>> Rose: AND ARE NOT BUYING
ANYMORE?
>> THEY ARE NOT -- THEY ARE
STABLE.
THE FEDERAL RESERVE BOUGHT MOST
OF OUR DEBT LAST YEAR.
>> Rose: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE
FEDERAL RESERVE SHOULD BE DOING?
>> I THINK THE FEDERAL RESERVE
OUGHT TO LET THE MARKETS WORK.
>> Rose: BUT THAT IS
ESSENTIALLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING,
ISN'T IT?
>> NO, THEY ARE CREATING A
FALSELY LOW INTEREST RATES,
BECAUSE THE PRIME THING NOW, AND
THEY ARE DOING QUANTITATIVE
EASING, WHICH IS A BUMP --
>> Rose: I KNOW, BUT THEY HAVE
TURNED DOWN THE OPPORTUNITY TO
DO QUANTITATIVE EASING.
>> THEY HAVE DONE IT TWICE.
>> Re: SOME HAVE BEEN
CALLING FOR IT AGAIN.
>> IT IS NOT GOING TO WORK.
>> Rose: AND THE CHAIRMAN OF
THE FED SAID HE IS NOT PREPARED
TO DO IT RIGHT NOW.
>> AND THEY ARE -- THEY ARE
STILL DOING QUANTITATIVE EASING,
AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, IF YOU
LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, THE M 1,
M2, MONEY SUPPLY HAS MARKEDLY
EXPANDED BUT THE VELOCITY OF
MONEY IS AT THE LOWEST POINT WE
HAVE EVER SEEN IN THIS COUNTRY,
AND THAT IS HOW YOU GET ECONOMIC
GROWTH IS -- THE BANKS ARE
SITTING WITH CAPITAL THAT ARE
WAY ABOVE WHAT THEIR CAPITAL
REQUIREMENTS ARE AND THEY ARE
NOT LOANING THE MONEY.
>> Rose: BECAUSE?
>> WELL, BECAUSE WE HAVE --
>> Rose: BECAUSE OF CONFIDENCE
IN THE ECONOMY.
>> CONFIDENCE IN THE ECONOMY,
CONFIDENCE AND CERTAINTY ABOUT
THE FUTURE, NUMBER 3 IS WE
MARKEDLY TIGHTENED UP ON WHAT
THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO, THE BIG
BANKS HAVE GROWN TREMENDOUSLY
OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, THE
SMALL BANKS ARE SHRINKING THE
TOO BIG TO FAIL PROBLEM IS
BIGGER THAN IT EVER WAS NOW, WE
HAVE DONE EXACTLY THE WRONG
THINGS, WE SHOULD HAVE
CONSEQUENCES.
>> Rose: YOU DID NOT SUPPORT
DODD FRANK?
>> I DID NOT.
>> Rose: BECAUSE YOU NOUGHT IT
WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO?
>> I THINK --
>> Rose: BECAUSE THE DEAL WAS
TOO BIG TO FAIL.
>> I DON'T THINK WE DEALT WITH
TOO BIG TO FAIL, ONE.
WE DID NOT FIX FANNIE MAE AND
FREDDIE MAC, WHICH IS THE TRUE
YEN SITUATION OF HOW WE GOT HERE
IN THE FIRST PLACE.
WE CREATED A CONSUMER FINANCIAL
PROTECTION BUREAU THAT IS EXTRA
CONSTITUTIONAL WHICH REALLY
BOTHERS ME AS SOMEBODY WHO TRIES
TO EMBRACE THE CONSTITUTION IN
WHAT I DO.
>> Rose: WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT
WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO?
>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW BUT YOU
CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT
THEY DO.
WHAT IF --
>> DON'T WE NEED THAT KIND OF
PROTECTION? ISN'T ELIZABETH
WARREN MAKE A POWERFUL CASE FOR
THAT OR NOT?
>> WELL, THEN DEMOCRACIES DON'T
WORK AND NEITHER DO REPUBLICS,
BECAUSE IF YOU CAN HAVE AN
ALL-POWERFUL CENTER THAT IS NOT
ACCOUNTABLE TO ANYBODY, WITH AN
UNLIMITED BUDGET WHICH IS WHAT
THIS IS --
>> Rose: BUT YOU CLEARLY -- IN
TERMS OF THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT
IN SOME POINT THERE IS A
CONSUMER PROTECTION ROLE.
>> SURE, THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS
IS ABOUT.
>> Rose: WHAT IS IT ABOUT?
>> IT IS
INTO ANY FINANCIAL -- IT IS A
REACH INTO A DORK'S OFFICE.
THEY HAVE THE POWER TO REACH AND
TELL YOU WHAT INTEREST CHARGE ON
SOMEBODY'S EXTRA, HOLDING AND
RUNNING A BILL 30 DAYS.
IN OTHER WORDS, THERE IS NO
LIMITATION, I DON'T HAVE ANY
PROBLEM IF WE WANT TO CREATE A
CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION
BUREAU BUT LET'S MAKE SURE FIRST
OF ALL THE MEMBERS HAVE TO BE
CONFIRMED, NUMBER 2, THEY HAVE A
BUDGET, NUMBER 3 IS THEY ARE
TRANSPARENT, NONE OF THAT IS IN
THAT.
>> Rose: OKAY.
LET ME MAKE ONE OTHER POINT TO
YOU AND GO BACK.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUSTERITY
BUDGET AND I WOULD AGREE WITH
KRUGMAN, WE CAN'T JUST DO
AUSTERITY.
>> RIGHT.
>> Rose: BUT THE.
>> BUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT IS
CREATE CONFIDENCE SO THE CAPITAL
OUT THERE NOW GETS INVESTED.
HIS ANSWER IS TO BORROW MONEY
AND STIMULATE --
>> Rose: IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU
CREATE CONFIDENCE.
THERE CAN'T BE A DEBATE ABOUT
HOW YOU CREATE CONFIDENCE.
>> MY ANSWER IS, LET'S GET THE
CAPITAL HERE WORKING RATHER THAN
THE GOVERNMENT BORROW MORE MONEY
AND SPEND IT FOOLISHLY, I HAVE
SEEN THE OVERSIGHT ON THE MONEY
WE SPEND SPENT ON THE STIMULUS,
WE ONLY SPENT A FEW BILLION OUT
OF $850 BILLION, WE DIDN'T
CREATE ANYTHING OF WEALTH WE
TRANSFERRED THE WORSE HABITS OF
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO THE
STATE GOVERNMENTS.
YOU HAVE GOT TO MAKE A CHOICE.
NOW THEY ARE ALL THIS YEAR
MAKING BAD CHOICES.
>> Rose: PEOPLE TELL ME SOME
OF THE STIMULUS WORKED.
>> SOME OF IT DID, SURE YOU
CAN'T SPEND A TRILLION-DOLLAR
AND NOT GET SOME BUT THE ACTUAL
MULTIPLIER WAS LESS THAN 1.02.
>> Rose: SOME WOULD SAY THE
STIMULUS PROGRAM THEY CREATED
WAS NOT TIMELY OR TARGETED AND
THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.
>> YES.
> WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN PREPARED
AT THAT TIME WHEN A REPUBLICAN
OFFICIAL HANK PAULSON AND OTHERS
WENT TO THE CONGRESS AND SAID WE
HAVE A BAD PLACE HERE AND WE
BETTER DO SOMETHING OR WE ARE
GOING OVER THE CLIFF.
>> I WAS SUPPORTIVE OF THE
STIMULUS
OF WHICH WAS INFRASTRUCTURE,
RESETTING THE MILITARY.
>> Rose: BUT YOU WOULD HAVE
SUPPORT, SO YOU DO BELIEVE THERE
TIMES WHEN STIMULATING THE
ECONOMY FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS
NECESSARY.
>> YES.
>> BUT THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE
TIMES?
>> IT DIDN'T WORK AND THE NEXT
ONE WON'T WORK.
>> Rose: BECAUSE IT WAS BADLY
CONSTRUCTED BUT YOU SAID YOU
BELIEVED IN IT.
>> BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IS
THE ANSWER RIGHT NOW.
I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE WORST
THINGS WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW.
>> Rose: RIGHT NOW?
>> YES.
>> Rose:.
>> I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO DO
WE HAVE TO -- WE HAVE TO HAVE
LEADERSHIP THAT CREATES
CONFIDENCE WE ARE ACTUALLY GOING
TO FIX THE PROBLEM.
>> Rose: ONE LAST QUESTION.
VALUE-ADDED TAX.
GOOD IDEA?
>> WELL, THE CONCEPT OF TABSING
SALES IS A VERY GOOD IDEA.
BECAUSE IT MARKEDLY ADVANTAGES
AMERICAN PRODUCERS.
>> WE ARE AT A SEVERE
DISADVANTAGE WHERE THE REST OF
THE WORLD HAS BATS BECAUSE THEY
DON'T APPLY IT WHEN THEY ARE
SHIPPING IT OVERSEAS WE HAVE
21 PERCENT BUILT INTO EVERY GOOD
WE MAKE AND SHIP OUT OF THE
COUNTRY.
>> Rose: RIGHT.
>> BUT A VALUE-ADDED TAX, WHAT I
WOULD SAY IS, LET'S GO TO A
NATIONAL SALES TAX, WHICH IS A
VALUE-ADDED TAX, AND THEN LET'S
CHECK IT AT RETAIL OR IF IT IS
IN THE PART OF MAKING A PRODUCT,
YOU DON'T EVER COLLECT IT UNTIL
THE FINAL RETAIL SALE.
WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THAT IS, YOU
COULD HAVE THAT AND WE WOULD
TAKE OUT THE 20 PERCENT THAT IS
EMBEDDED IN EVERYTHING WE BUY
TODAY IS TAXED ALONG THE WAY AND
MARKEDLY INCREASE OUR EXPORTS
TOMORROW AND BE MARKEDLY MORE
COMPETITIVE.
>> Rose: RIGHT.
>> BUT DO THAT IN COMBINATION
WITH SOME ENTITLEMENT REFORM AND
DISCRETIONARY SPENDING TRANCE
FORM, TRANSPARENCY IN THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHICH WE
STILL DON'T HAVE NEAR ENOUGH OF
SO AMERICA CAN ACTUALLY SEE WHAT
WE ARE DOING AND HOW WE ARE
DOING IT.
THE COMBINATION OF THOSE THINGS.
SO I AM NOT OPPOSED TO A SALES
TAX, BUT A VALUE-ADDED TAX MEANS
YOU KEEP THE PRESENT TAX SYSTEM
AND ADD TAX ON TOP OF IT AND I
THINK WHAT WE HAVE TODAY IS
SICK.
>> Rose: SO YOU ARE GOING TO
END THE SENATE TERM AND GO BACK
TO OKLAHOMA.
>> I AM.
>> AND PRACTICE MEDICINE OR DO
SOMETHING ELSE?
>> IT DEPENDS I AM NOT SURE I
CAN KEEP UP WITH MEDICINE WELL
ENOUGH TO SERVE PATIENTS FAIRLY.
>> Rose: FAIR ENOUGH. THERE
IS ALSO THIS.
YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING THAT YOU
ARE PESSIMISTIC, YOU DON'T THINK
WE HAVE THE WILL AT THIS TIME.
>> I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
DO.
I DON'T THINK THE POLITICIANS
DO.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, IF YOU LAY
OUT, IF THEY WERE TO READ THIS
BOOK AND YOU LAY OUT WHAT IS IN
FRONT OF US AND HE SAY ANY
COMBINATION OF THOSE ARE
SOMETHING ELSE, FIX IT.
THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT FIXED,
THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR
CHILDREN, AND THEIR
GRANDCHILDREN,.
>> Rose: AND THEY BELIEVE THE
LIFE MAY BE WORSE FOR THE
CHILDREN THAN IT IS FOR THEM.
>> AND IT IS GOING TO BE, IF WE
DON'T FIX THIS.
>> Rose: THE BOOK IS CALLED
THE DEBT BOMB, A BOLD PLAN TO
STOP WASHINGTON FROM BANKRUPTING
AMERICA, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE
WEIGHED IN ON THIS IDEA, THE
SENATOR TOM COBURN COMES TO THIS
FROM SERVICE IN THE HOUSE AND IN
THE CONGRESS AND FROM, AS YOU
CAN CLEARLY TELL, HE HAS MADE
THIS AN OBJECT OF STUDY AND
CONCERN AND SPEAKS FROM BOTH HIS
BRAIN AND HIS HEART, AND I AM
PLEASED TO HAVE HIM ON THE
PROGRAM, THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU, CHARLIE IT IS MY