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okay good morning and welcome to liberty day
my name is Paul Russack and I'm representing the lions club
the lions club is one of a number of service clubs along with the rotary
clubs, the jaycees,
and basically we go out and do good things for the community
one of the things that the lions club sponsors is liberty day which is what
we're here for today. we bring distinguished speakers in to talk to
middle school students
about government, law, and the constitution.
today we're lucky very lucky to have as our speaker judge Mark Gould.
judge Gould has been a judge since two thousand eight and has presided over family
civil and criminal cases
judge Gould graduated from the university of connecticut and lewis &
clark law school in portland oregon
he practiced law in connecticut for twenty four years
at law firms and in the corporate setting and he's also a
professor at Quinnipiac, a professor of law, at quinnipiac university
Judge Gould will give his presentation and then we'll take questions at the end so
please save your questions until the end of his formal presentation. I give you
Judge Gould
well good morning
how's everybody doing?
friday right?
you've studied the constitution
you understand all of it?
we have our washington's we have our madisons- so we went through the whole thing right?
who in here is an expert on the constitution?
somebody has - to the washingtons and madison's must
how about the fellow back there that has the eagle on his shirt who was a washington
you are
Thomas, right?
You go by Thomas or tom?
that's the right answer for a judge
what you've got in front of you is a copy of the first amendment
alright you're going to be my constitutional expert for this morning
so while i'm talking for a minute you can feel free to go ahead and read that if
you want
okay to yourself
here's the big quiz, if you pay attention to the consititution, I'll give you a clue on this
the question i'm going to ask you, the answer is on the wall right outside this room
Does anybody
here know the first three words in the constitution?
"we the people"
alright, perfect.
this group right here
you're going to be a real people chorus
okay right here
Lead this for me.
what's gonna happen is
when I point at you i just need you to say "we the people" alright?
we'll have practice one time - ready:
We the people
how're you making out with the first amendment?
are you ready to go?
what we're going to do is we're going to focus on that part of the first amendment
that has to do with freedom of speech
okay
what's the key word in freedom of speech?
Three words, you can pick one
perfect
freedom.
this is a free country right?
and you should be allowed to do whatever you want in a free country
would you agree with me about that?
freedom is the key word
so that's what we're gonna talk about today
in the first amendment - are there any restrictions
can the government say to you-
no, you can't do that?
even if you could do it, you can't do it
we're going to restrict your ability to do it
but just remember that
okay let's try one more time you guys
they're good at that
here's what we're going to talk about
and we're going to use me as the example
I have, cause you know I'm a judge so I'm kind of strange and I wear a robe
all kinds of stuff and I have white hair
I do a lot of odd things
and one of the things that i like to do and i was gonna do it this morning but
I didn't want to scare anybody
like when i come to an event like this like a public building, be it a school
or
or a theater or a mall or whatever it may be
i like to really go in the there and get people's attention
now usually if you have white hair and wear a robe you can get peoples'
attention anyway
I don't wear my robe when I go to the theater or the mall maybe I should, I don't know
so when i come in a public place like a school, or a theater, or the mall
the first thing I do is scream out "Fire"
it's amazing how much attention you get when you do that
okay
and every time i do it
somebody throws me out of the theater,
throws me out of the mall, throws me out of the school
and they tell me, if you do that again
i'll have you arrested
which being a judge scares me
okay
you've all studied the constitution
you had your constitutional convention
and the question here is -
if i have to freedom of speech for freedom of communication
in this country
why can't i do that?
let's go to our constitutional expert
is there anything in the first amendment
that says 'oh' by the way you can't yell fire in a public place
anything in there that says that? - "no"
you're doing great
no wonder you were washington
so
i can go to the public
place
I can run in and scream fire
it never said you can't do that
there's nothing in the amendment that says i can't
and trust me there's really not much else in the constitution that says i can't
except for one problem
"We the People"
you guys follow orders really well; I like that
here's the thing
if I do that
in a public place
what am I doing?
anybody, just yell it out
yeah
at the very least -
danger, stampede,
people running around,
people are going to get hurt
but there's still nothing in constitution says i can't do it, right?
the reason for that is and the reason that i can't do it
and the reason that's
essentially against the law is
because people are going to get hurt. those in the first three words in the
constitution,
it may say certain things
but the government at times
can regulate or prohibit you
from doing something like that
okay so far
i'm told
lawyer tells me i can't do it
now i'm really upset
so i can figure out what to do
so what I do now is, rather than running in that public place
what i do is
I put on my shirt
usually I wear a shirt that says uconn on it
I go to public places sometimes
i put on a shirt
it says guess what
fire
I shouldn't say that too loud
anything in the constitution? Tom is the expert
our washington
eagle on your shirt, is there anything in the 1st amendment that says I can't do that?
no - so i can do that
constitutionally, it's not there
doesn't say I can't do it
so I could do it
should i point to my chorus?
I didn't point yet
should I point to my we the people chorus on that?
is that different?
why is it? everybody says yes somebody tell me why it's different
good answer. everybody hear that?
be our washington next time
that's the difference if i've got some expression on my shirt
it's not going to raise the same
reaction
okay
but you gotta be careful
because what happens to my shirt
you guys are in 8th grade, correct?
what happens on my shirt
i put on the there -
all 8th graders at Dodd Middle School cheat
Now truth's a defense, we know
what about that?
you said "fire" - that's good
okay
how about that?
because now what's happening
"we the people"
i'm starting to identify people
i'm starting to say something about people specifically
is there anything in there that says I can't put that on my shirt?
you're doing well so far
how about that?
is that okay?
notice i pointed to my chorus
it's not okay. Why not?
yeah, there you go
you're good
you're going to be a lawyer
see the difference there?
before it was just the word fire on it, now it may be, now that may be offensive to somebody
somebody may think just because I have it on my shirt that there's a fire someplace
but i'm not screening out fire
are not causing a panic
i'm not upsetting or possibly injuring the people
okay
when I put that on my shirt
and it said something specifically about a group of people
there's that word again, "people"
there could be some harm there
okay
you may
walk around with that shirt on
and i walk around cheshire with that shirt on and all of a sudden some people may
start to get the idea
that the 8th graders at Dodd cheat
and you don't want that reputation and you don't cheat
you don't cheat, RIGHT?
don't forget, your teachers are in the room
see the difference
so now we've got a little bit of a restriction
okay
but doesn't say anything about that in the first amendment does it, Thomas?
it says freedom of speech and freedom of the press and all that kind of stuff
right?
does it say the same thing about what i put my shirt?
so how can the government tell me i can't do that?
"We the People"
beacause im
Harming somebody potentially
in a perfect world, we don't want that
okay
let's take the same example and stand it out a little bit.
does anybody here have a Facebook page?
on a Facebook page, I've got one
onto facebook page I write,
I spoke at
dodd middle school today
and by the way did you guys know that everybody at dodd school cheats?
and i took a picture of a couple of you
okay
say anything about that in there?
so i could do that right?
so far
I've got to point first, okay.
see the thing there?
now, in our world now with social media
i'm going to have more people, because believe it or not I actually do have one or two
friends on face book
i'm going to have more people
looking at that
then might have if I walked in here with the t-shirt on and walked out
that's going to be something is going to affect
the people
okay
it doesn't say in the amendment, Thomas has convinced me of that
but once again, "well, no, you can't do that"
maybe you can't do that
how about
if on my face book page
or
on
a text , by the way since I'm a judge I have all your cell phone numbers
got quiet all of a sudden, didn't it?
and i'm going to send out texts to all of you
that says
FIRE - in capital letters
now what's the problem?
so a lady over here before before basically said that if
I'm in a situation
where nobody's going to be afraid
i'm okay
well in that situation you've all got that text
what happens?
you're going to react
that's a problem
that's a problem
how about if I text to you,
or is anybody here on twitter?
I
text to you
or send a tweet out to you, its amazing that an old man with white hair knows what a tweet is
I send a tweet out to you that says
Fire
can I do that? Is there anything in the first amendment about twitter or facebook?
you've got to understand, the first amendment was written in seventeen eighty seven right after i
was born.
you gotta understand that there wasn't much out there at that time
as far as media was concerned
there was only at that time one newspaper in this country
and they want to guess at what it was
that was one
but that's an official record, I'm talking about a newspaper, newspaper, british
paper
you're close- the Hartford Courant
the only newspaper in the country
so there were a lot less concerned about
communication
at that time
when people communicated they literally went down the town green
and ran off bills and handed them out,
no not dollars
read bills and handed them to the people
but what's interesting about today, with the internet, that's kind of what we
got back to
with social media
you send a tweet out
you sent us old people an e-mail
you post something on face book
you're doing essentially what they did in the town green in seventeen eighty seven
so things have come back a little
but now there's so much more exposure
if I do that on the town green in 1787
in Cheshire
you know there are, what,
two hundred people?
tops.
you send out
something on your face book page
or you send out a tweet
the whole world is looking at it
so the will may be the same
but the exposure has changed
so
what happens?
I tweet that out, I text that out, the words 'FIRE'
problem?
based on what i just told you?
sure
because a lot of people are going to see it
slight difference from when i have
the worst fire on my a shirt right?
now maybe some people will see that
but it's not that large of an audience
as you might see
on twitter
or on facebook
or if you sent a text out to a number of people.
okay
how about if i send it out
a text
or a tweet - it says
all Dodd 8th Graders cheat
and careful with this answers
can you guys whisper we the people?
you know why?
do you understand why
theyre whispering now?
because if I send out, or I post something on my facebook
page
that says, "all Dodd Students Cheat"
eighth graders cheat
who's going to see that?
now your friends really see it and send it maybe to your colleagues and friends
here in cheshire
whatever it may be
but if somebody in Iowa, or
india, or
south america sees that
what's their reaction gonna be?
how about,
"cheaters"
now if that happens
are we dealing with we the people?
and remember something,
that's the amendment to the U.S constitution
is there a problem
if somebody reads that
in india over south America?
you guys the constitution
why no, somebody said no
that's a different people
you're on the right track
there's no U.S constitution in india
our laws don't apply there
so what happens when i send something out that literally goes all over the
world? - good question
is that covered in the first amendment?
probably not
so that's the problem you're going to run into
you're going to be in that situation
where you're going to happen
figure out
how your freedoms expand
and how your freedoms contract
and that's the point that you have to figure it out for yourself
and you know with our world changing as has happened today
rules may or may not be the same
there's not a lot of law
on the effect of the first amendment
on the internet
on social media
on twitter
on facebook
on texting
there's just not that kind of walled area
because it really hasn't been around that long. The first amendment has been
around since seventeen eighty seven/
the internet's been around since,
in its present form, nineteen ninety three
little difference there
however the courts
decide
how to deal with this conflict
thomas tells me it's not in the first amendment
and the word that you guys all agreed with me was the most important word was freedom
how do we deal with that
how do we deal with the
"We the people"
vs
"i can do anything" or "what's a free country"
how do, we how we deal with that? well,
the courts look at it in a couple of different ways
the first one
is pretty straightforward
you guys go home from school
and you say to your folks, I'm going over to my friends house
and they say no
and of course because your all very smart eighth graders
you say why no?
and you know
all parents, cause this has been in parenthood forever, probably
before seventeen eighty seven
your parents will say because i said no
now you're smart you're starting to think about government,
freedom, and all this stuff, you say "why not" again.
and your parents always say
this phrase and i never could figure it out, you probably can't either -
"no means no"
okay
well believe it or not
that is the literal interpretation of our the constitution
Thomas has told us all morning long here
there's nothing that says I
can't do these things
no means no
no means no
so you can go ahead and do whatever you want
that is pretty dangerous
because there's a couple of interpretations of that first amendment.
as i said,
that amendment was written in seventeen eighty seven
would you agree with me the world has changed a little bit since seventeen
eighty seven
now obviously i just talked about, you know, something that is happening last, you
know, eighteen or twenty years
with social media
that's one thing, but look - other things that are in the constitution have changed
so there is this struggle back and forth
of whether no really means no.
now don't go home and say that to your parents
"the judge said no doesn't mean no"
no still means no because it's not there
but court opinions, and court interpretation of that amendment
has changed
and how it's changed is this -
the court's develop what they call a balancing test
between Thomas saying "no means no"
and "we the people"
that's how it works
whatever's going on
me having the word "fire" on my shirt or
me tweeting that you guys cheat
whatever it maybe, we're
a court's going to look at that and say
whose rights are we dealing with here?
one-side being the rights of
me to express myself -
and Thomas has told me there's nothing in there that says I cant do it
vs
people being affected and potentially hurt
like if i come in this building and scream the word fire
and chaos ensues
that's the situation
now here's the problem with the balancing test
a couple of you guys in front, stand-up
stand up
not everybody. Just a few people stand up and turn around and wave to everybody
hi how are you doing
now stand on two legs as you're doing right now
okay totally balanced?
we're pretty much you're totally balanced ok this is great
well i don't know that we do
it says no, but 'we the people.' you're still balanced, right
okay, now stand on one leg
now bend a little bit one way or the other. You're already ehhh
tipsy turvy like you're on the water,
go ahead put your leg down
you guys did really well. Thank you
see what happens when you start
balancing or unbalancing. well I've got some rights and
I've got some other rights. What do we do?
that's why we have Courts
and our courts will make those decisions
and this happens all the time, happens to everyday
everytime i make a decision whether something like this or for something else
somebody's not happy
but when somebody's not happy, they tend to back off and say a court has spoken
this is what I have to do
and that goes back to what was the glorious part of that document which is
the first three works - we the people
because the people are the ones who are in control here
if the people don't like a law
or don't like someone who's been elected
and brought us a law
what do you do?
you change
the law
until then you obey it, but you change the law and that's the beauty of that
document that you've studied
it says certain things
but it's interpreted certain ways
it changes
and ebbs
and flows
and you could almost say about the interpretation of the entire document, and the
interpretation of any amendment in the document
-- it ebbs and it flows and it changes based on our times
i guarantee you before you graduate, you all want to graduate from high school, right?
before you graduate from high school, you will start to see and read about court
decisions, there's some already,
about the internet
about social media
about facebook
the world, and that amazing document which is on the wall outside this room
is changing and ebbing and flowing.
it's pretty amazing what we did between seventeen seventy six
and 1787, it's an amazing document
that's all I'm going to say about it right now
if you guys have any questions -