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ANNOUNCER: PRESENTATION OF DIALOGUE ON IDAHO PUBLIC
TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE LAURA MOORE CUNNINGHAM FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO
FULFILLING THE MOORE FAMILY'S LEGACY OF BUILDING THE GREAT
STATE OF IDAHO.
MARCIA FRANKLIN: COMING UP, IDAHO'S SCHOOL
SYSTEM CONSISTENTLY RANKS NEAR THE BOTTOM OF NATIONAL EDUCATION
ASSESSMENTS.
ADMINISTRATORS, TEACHERS, PARENTS AND BUSINESS LEADERS
HAVE ALL BEEN TRYING TO HELP MOVE THE DIAL.
BUT IT'S BEEN TOUGH.
SO WHAT MIGHT HELP?
I TALK WITH TWO EDUCATION EXPERTS WHO'VE LED
HIGH-PERFORMING SCHOOL SYSTEMS IN OTHER STATES TO GET THEIR
VIEWS.
THAT'S DIALOGUE NEXT.
STAY TUNED.
[MUSIC]
HELLO, AND WELCOME TO DIALOGUE.
I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.
WHETHER IT'S TEST RESULTS, MONEY SPENT ON SCHOOLS OR THE NUMBERS
OF STUDENTS GOING TO COLLEGE, WHEN IT COMES TO MANY
MEASUREMENTS OF K THROUGH 12 EDUCATION IN IDAHO, OUR STATE
RANKS NEAR THE BOTTOM.
SO WHAT MIGHT IT TAKE TO TURN THAT AROUND?
WITH ME ARE TWO PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN AT THE HELM OF SCHOOL
SYSTEMS THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED SUCCESS--NOT THAT IT'S ALWAYS
BEEN EASY, AS WE'LL HEAR--BUT THEY'LL SHARE THEIR THOUGHTS ON
WHAT THEY THINK WORKS.
FIRST, LET ME INTRODUCE DAVID DRISCOLL.
DR. DRISCOLL WAS THE COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION FOR
MASSACHUSETTS FROM 1998 TO 2007.
HE'S A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL OF CHIEF STATE SCHOOL
OFFICERS AND THE OUTGOING CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL ASSESSMENT
GOVERNING BOARD.
HE BEGAN HIS CAREER AS A MATHEMATICS TEACHER AND ALSO
SERVED AS A LOCAL SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT.
NOW, UNDER DR. DRISCOLL'S LEADERSHIP AS STATE
COMMISSIONER, MASSACHUSETTS SCHOOLS WERE CONSISTENTLY RANKED
AS AMONG THE VERY BEST IN THE NATION.
WELCOME TO YOU.
DAVID DRISCOLL: THANK YOU, MARCIA.
FRANKLIN: IT'S NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE.
DRISCOLL: GLAD TO BE HERE.
FRANKLIN: ALSO JOINING ME IS ERIC SMITH.
DR. SMITH WAS THE COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION FOR FLORIDA FROM
2007 TO 2011.
A FORMER MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCE TEACHER, DR. SMITH ALSO SERVED
AS A DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT IN SEVERAL STATES AND SENIOR VICE
PRESIDENT FOR THE COLLEGE BOARD WHICH ADMINISTERS THE SAT.
DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION AS COMMISSIONER, THE FLORIDA SCHOOL
SYSTEM WON A $700 MILLION RACE TO THE TOP GRANT FROM THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
IT'S NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE, AS WELL.
ERIC SMITH: GOOD TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
FRANKLIN: NOW, MY GUESTS ARE IN BOISE TO TAKE PART IN THE "ED
SESSIONS," A SERIES OF LECTURES SPONSORED BY THE J-A AND KATHRYN
ALBERTSON FOUNDATION.
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT THE DIALOGUE WEBSITE.
YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN IN THIS STATE FOR 25 YEARS AND I HAVE TO
SAY, AS A REPORTER, I HAVE MET PHENOMENAL TEACHERS IN THIS
STATE, PHENOMENAL STUDENTS IN THIS STATE, AND ADMINISTRATORS,
PRINCIPALS, THE LIKE.
SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN I SEE SOME OF THE DATA, IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A
HEAD-SCRATCHER BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I KNOW THAT THERE ARE
EXCELLENT FOLK OUT THERE.
WHAT ARE WE TO MAKE WHEN WE SEE THIS DISCONNECT, YOU KNOW, IN A
STATE LIKE IDAHO?
DRISCOLL: WELL, ONE OF THE FRUSTRATING THINGS ABOUT PUBLIC
EDUCATION IS JUST WHAT YOU'VE MENTIONED.
EVERY STATE, EVERY DISTRICT, EVERY SCHOOL HAS HIGHS AND LOWS,
AND IT'S AMAZING.
I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT ANY STATE IN THE NATION, YOU WILL FIND
OUTSTANDING SCHOOLS, AND YOU WILL ALSO FIND SCHOOLS THAT ARE
DOING VERY POORLY, SO IT'S THAT CONSISTENCY -
FRANKLIN: THE AGGREGATE.
DRISCOLL: - WE JUST DON'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO GET TO IN PUBLIC
EDUCATION.
YOU WOULD THINK THAT THE SCHOOLS THAT PERFORM WELL CONSISTENTLY
WOULD BE THE ONES THAT OTHERS WOULD TRY TO COPY, BUT IT
DOESN'T SEEM TO TURN OUT THAT WAY.
SO, IT - AND IT'S TRUE IN ALL OF OUR STATES.
FRANKLIN: WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR SYSTEM NOW AND THE QUALITY
COUNTS DATA, WHICH IS ONE MEASURE, IT PUTS IDAHO'S CHANCE
FOR SUCCESS AT ABOUT A "C", THINGS LIKE THE TEACHING
PROFESSION A "D-MINUS", SCHOOL FINANCE A "D MINUS".
WHAT DO YOU LOOK AT WHEN YOU COME INTO A STATE LIKE THIS, AND
WHAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THINGS THAT YOU WOULD ATTACK TO START
CHANGING?
SMITH: YEAH, A GREAT QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, I WOULD LOOK AT DATA LIKE THAT QUALITY COUNTS, I
THINK, IS A GREAT MEASURE, IS AN ISSUE THAT I CHASED AFTER AS
COMMISSIONER ALL THE TIME.
I'M VERY AWARE OF THE QUALITY COUNTS INFORMATION.
BUT I WOULD SPEND A LITTLE BIT OF TIME LOOKING AT WHAT IDAHO'S
DOING VERY, VERY WELL, AND I'D BEGIN BY FOCUSING ON THAT.
AND I THINK THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE IN QUALITY COUNTS AND
OTHER MEASURES THAT SAY THAT IDAHO HAS SOME GREAT STRENGTH.
AND I'D START WITH A FOCUS ON WHAT IDAHO IS DOING WELL, AND
THEN I WOULD BEGIN TO LOOK AT THOSE THINGS THAT WE HAVE
OPPORTUNITY FOR GREAT IMPROVEMENT.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, STARTING TO BUILD A FRAMEWORK OF
STRATEGIES THAT COULD BE COMMUNICATED WELL WITH TEACHERS,
WITH PARENTS, WITH ELECTED OFFICIALS, WITH BUSINESS LEADERS
AND DEVELOPING A CONSENSUS AROUND THAT PATH FORWARD, I
THINK, WOULD BE A KEY PLACE TO BEGIN.
FRANKLIN: WELL, LET'S JUST JUMP RIGHT INTO SOME OF THESE
POTENTIAL FACTORS THAT YOU LOOK AT.
SCHOOL FUNDING.
I MEAN, THIS COMES UP A LOT IN OUR STATE.
WE SPEND ABOUT $7,000 PER STUDENT.
MASSACHUSETTS SPENDS $14,000 PER STUDENT, FLORIDA ABOUT $9,000.
SO, IS THIS THE NUT GRAPH?
IS THIS THE CENTERPIECE HERE WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU SAY,
"YOU'RE NOT SPENDING ENOUGH MONEY"?
DRISCOLL: SO, ONE OF THE MATERIALS THAT THE ALBERTSON
FOUNDATION, WHICH HAS TREMENDOUS DATA, BY THE WAY -
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY GAVE TO US WAS A
SCATTERGRAM OF THE AMOUNT OF MONEY BEING SPENT VERSUS
ACHIEVEMENT, AND IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT MASSACHUSETTS, IT'S THE SAME.
CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS SPENDS THE MOST OF ANY DISTRICT IN
MASSACHUSETTS, AND IT HARDLY HAS THE BEST ACHIEVEMENT.
SO, THE CORRELATION BETWEEN ACHIEVEMENT AND MONEY SPENT JUST
ISN'T THERE.
MY OWN VIEW IS THAT THERE IS A MINIMUM AMOUNT NEEDED.
YOU CAN'T - YOU CAN'T HAVE HUGE CLASS SIZES.
YOU CAN'T HAVE INADEQUATE.
SO, THAT'S WHY IN MASSACHUSETTS WE DEVELOPED A FOUNDATION BUDGET
THAT BROUGHT EVERYBODY UP TO AT LEAST THE FOUNDATION, AND
THERE'S A REQUIREMENT THAT EVERY LOCAL DISTRICT HAS A MINIMUM
CONTRIBUTION.
NOW, THE RICHER DISTRICTS SPEND MORE THAN THAT -
FRANKLIN: RIGHT.
DRISCOLL: WHICH, STILL - FRANKLIN: WE HAVE A FORMULA
HERE, AS WELL, HERE.
DRISCOLL: - THERE'S THAT EQUITY.
BUT I THINK - I'VE SEEN THE DATA IN IDAHO, AND IT'S A DIFFICULT
POLITICAL ISSUE, BECAUSE THE STATE LEGISLATORS LOOK DOWN AND
TO THE RIGHT: HOW IS A NEW FORMULA GOING TO HELP MY
DISTRICT?
AND SO IT'S HARD TO GET A STATEWIDE CONSENSUS ON IT.
BUT I THINK TWEAKS AND TAKING THE CURRENT FORMULA AND TRYING
TO - AS ERIC SAID BEFORE, LOOK AT WHAT'S WORKING, BUT THEN LOOK
AT THE AREAS THAT AREN'T AND ACHIEVE THE TWEAKS.
FRANKLIN: WELL, HOW MUCH MORE WOULD YOU LIFT IT UP FROM SEVEN
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A HUGE DISPARITY BETWEEN $14,000 PER
STUDENT IN MASSACHUSETTS AND SEVEN IN IDAHO.
DRISCOLL: WELL, I JUST THINK -
SMITH: I WOULD SAY THAT THE FIRST THING I WOULD LOOK AT IS,
IS THERE EVIDENCE, OTHER EVIDENCE THAT SAYS THAT YOUR
SCHOOLS ARE NOT ADEQUATELY FUNDED, OR IS THERE GREAT
DISPARITY IN THE ADEQUACY OF FUNDING BETWEEN SCHOOLS?
AND IF YOU GO TO SOME SCHOOLS, YOU SEE OLD BOOKS OR NO BOOKS.
FRANKLIN: RIGHT, OR FOUR-DAY WEEKS OR SCHOOL ROOFS THAT ARE
LEAKING-
SMITH: YOU SEE OLD WHATEVER, THESE KINDS OF THINGS THAT ARE
JUST NOT EQUAL IN TERMS OF DELIVERY.
AND IS IT A FUNDING ISSUE OR A JUDGMENT ISSUE?
THAT'S ONE POINT.
AND IF SO, THEN IF IT REQUIRES MORE, WE FIND MORE.
BUT I SAY THE OTHER THING THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL IS - AND I THINK
IS AN ISSUE HERE IN IDAHO - IS THE CONSISTENCY OF FUNDING.
EDUCATORS THAT ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS HAVE GOT TO HAVE
MORE THAN ONE YEAR TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE.
AND WHETHER IT'S THE PURCHASE OF AN INSTRUCTIONAL PROGRAM,
THEY'VE GOT TO IMPLEMENT IT, AND IT'S GOT TO LAST FOR TWO OR
THREE YEARS.
SO, GETTING CONSISTENCY IN THAT FUNDING OVER TIME, NOT UPS AND
DOWNS, IS CRITICAL.
FRANKLIN: WHAT DO YOU DO IN A STATE THOUGH, WHERE THE POOL
OF MONEY TO DRAW UPON, I-E, THE SALARIES OF PEOPLE THAT LIVE
HERE, SALES TAX REVENUES, WHATEVER, IS MUCH SMALLER?
HOW DO YOU LIFT - BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE BOTH OF YOU ARE
SAYING SOME MORE MONEY IS NEEDED, BUT HOW DO YOU - HOW DO
YOU GET IT FROM A POPULATION THAT HAS NOT MUCH INCOME?
DRISCOLL: SO, I THINK THAT - I THINK THAT EVERY STATE IS
UNIQUE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, AND IDAHO CERTAINLY HAS
CHALLENGES THAT FLORIDA AND MASSACHUSETTS DON'T AND VICE
VERSA.
WE HAVE THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF SPECIAL-NEEDS KIDS IN THE
COUNTRY.
85% PERCENT OF OUR BUDGETS ARE SALARIES, AND TO LIVE IN BOSTON
OR CAMBRIDGE OR SOME OF THEM WHERE IT'S QUITE -- SO OUR
SALARY IS HIGHER.
SO, I MEAN, I THINK THERE'S SOME BALANCING HERE.
BUT I THINK THE LARGER ISSUE IS, WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH THE MONEY
YOU HAVE?
IT'S NOT - IT'S NOT A FUNCTION OF IF YOU GET X NUMBER OF
DOLLARS, THEREFORE STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT WILL INCREASE.
I THINK THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE LOOKED AT IN
CONJUNCTION WITH FINANCING.
IF FINANCING IS A BIG PROBLEM, FINE.
BUT IN THIS STATE, AND I GIVE YOU CREDIT FOR ADDRESSING IT,
YOU HAVE STATE SCORES THAT SHOW THAT ESSENTIALLY 80 PERCENT OF
YOUR KIDS ARE PROFICIENT.
NAEP SAYS HALF OF THAT ARE, BETWEEN 40 AND 50.
SO, YOU'VE ALREADY TAKEN A HUGE STEP, I THINK BOTH ERIC AND I
WOULD SAY, WHICH IS YOU'VE SET HIGHER EXPECTATIONS AND
STANDARDS FOR YOUR KIDS - FRANKLIN: WELL, LET ME -
DRISCOLL: -AND TELLING THE TRUTH.
FRANKLIN: LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT'S THE NEXT
PIECE, BESIDES FUNDING, IS FOR, YOU
KNOW, A PARENT OR SOMEBODY TO ASSESS A SCHOOL SYSTEM, LOOK AT
THE TESTS.
YOU MENTIONED THAT THE IDAHO TESTS SHOW A HIGH PROFICIENCY IN
CERTAIN AREAS, AND YOU MENTIONED NAEP, WHICH IS THE NATIONAL
ASSESSMENT OF EDUCATIONAL PROGRESS.
THOSE TESTS SHOW A MUCH DIFFERENT PICTURE.
ALMOST HALF AS PROFICIENT.
WHAT IS A PARENT - YOU KNOW, LOOKING IN ON A SYSTEM TRYING TO
DECIDE IF IDAHO IS A PLACE TO MOVE, WHICH TEST ARE THEY
SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE ON THIS?
THE DATA IS ALL OVER THE PLACE.
SMITH: THIS GUY HERE IS THE EXPERT ON NAEP, AND I'VE LEARNED
A GREAT DEAL FROM HIM ABOUT IT, BUT I'VE ALWAYS USED NAEP DATA.
IT'S A SAMPLING OF POPULATION, SO IT'S NOT GOING TO TELL YOU
WHAT SCHOOL X OR Y IS GOING TO BE DOING.
FRANKLIN: RIGHT.
SMITH: BUT IT'S A SAMPLING OF YOUR PERFORMANCE.
FRANKLIN: AND IT'S A NATIONAL KIND OF TEST.
SMITH: NATIONAL.
AND IT IS KIND OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE GOLD STANDARD, IT'S
THE BACKSTOP, AND YOU CAN TELL WHERE YOUR STATE IS MOVING OR
NOT BASED ON SOME OF THAT MULTI-YEAR PERFORMANCE DATA.
BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IDAHO HAS DONE SOME PHENOMENAL
WORK AND NEEDS TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT HOW THEY TAKE CARE OF THIS
OPPORTUNITY THAT THEY HAVE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE MOVED TO
SHARED STANDARDS WITH OTHER STATES THROUGH THE COMMON CORE,
AND THEY'VE MOVED TO A SHARED ASSESSMENT WITH OTHER STATES.
FRANKLIN: BUT WHEN YOU SEE THAT DISPARITY, DOCTOR, BETWEEN THE
NATIONAL EXAM, AND, GRANT IT, IT'S JUST A - IT'S NOT SERVING
EVERY STUDENT, AND THE IDAHO DATA WHICH IS ALMOST DOUBLE - IT
SHOWS US AT DOUBLE PROFICIENCY; WHICH IS CORRECT?
I MEAN, IT COULD BE THAT THE STANDARDS FOR IDAHO ARE LESS
RIGOROUS AND SO THAT'S WHY THE SCORES ARE HIGHER.
DRISCOLL: I THINK YOU CAN DRAW THAT CONCLUSION.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
YOU SHOULD TAKE THE NAEP DATA.
THAT'S CONSISTENT AND CORRECT.
SO, ANY STATE THAT HAS MUCH HIGHER - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE
EXACT BUT DOUBLE - IT CLEARLY DOESN'T HAVE PROPER STANDARDS,
THE RIGHT EXPECTATIONS FOR KIDS.
ONE STATE HAS OVER 80 PERCENT PROFICIENT AND, YET, UNDER NAEP,
LESS THAN 15 PERCENT PROFICIENT, SO THEY'VE CLEARLY SET TOO LOW A
BAR.
BUT AS ERIC POINTS OUT, IDAHO HAS NOW JOINED THE SMARTER
BALANCED, SO - FRANKLIN: YOU MEAN THE COMMON
CORE STATES -
DRISCOLL: THE ASSESSMENT FOR THOSE STATES THAT - THERE ARE
TWO ASSESSMENTS, PARCC AND SMARTER BALANCED, THAT HAVE
BEEN MERGED THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH COMMON CORE, AND IDAHO HAS
CHOSEN SMARTER BALANCED, ALONG WITH 20-SOMETHING OTHER
STATES.
SO, YOU ARE SOON GOING TO HAVE - FIRST OF ALL, THERE WILL BE
RESULTS, AND THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN THE SMARTER
BALANCED RESULTS COME OUT AND THE PARCC RESULTS COME OUT,
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COMPARE IT TO NAEP, AND THEY KNOW THAT.
AND, ACTUALLY, WE'VE WORKED WITH BOTH CONSORTIA.
SO, IDAHO WILL HAVE RESULTS THAT ARE COMPARABLE TO OTHER STATES,
BECAUSE THEY'RE TAKING THE SAME TEST.
FRANKLIN: TESTING.
YOU'RE A PROPONENT OF TESTING.
SMITH: I THINK TESTING IS VERY IMPORTANT.
FRANKLIN: YOU'RE A PROPONENT OF LOTSOF TESTING.
SMITH: I WOULDN'T GO THAT FAR, BUT I'M A PROPONENT OF TESTING.
I THINK TESTING IS IMPORTANT.
FRANKLIN: YEAH, TEACHERS, SOME PARENTS, YOU KNOW, ARE VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THEY SEE AS OVER-TESTING RIGHT NOW.
SMITH: YEAH, AND I THINK THAT - FIRST OF ALL, THE OLD ADAGE
"WHAT GETS MEASURED GETS DONE, WHAT'S IMPORTANT GETS MEASURED,"
I THINK THOSE THINGS ARE VERY TRUE.
AND IF THE EDUCATION OF THE CHILDREN OF IDAHO IS IMPORTANT,
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT TO KNOW WHETHER IT'S BEING EFFECTIVE AND
EFFICIENT.
PARTICULARLY PARENTS ARE GOING TO KNOW WHETHER THE JOB IN MY
SCHOOL IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN MY CHILD'S LIFE, AND THE ONLY
WAY TO REALLY KNOW THAT IS THROUGH SOME FORM OF A
LEGITIMATE ASSESSMENT THAT GIVES YOU A GOOD MEASURE.
FRANKLIN: SO, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THE TEACHERS WHO ARE
CONCERNED ABOUT OVER-TESTING?
SMITH: WELL, AND I THINK - WHEN THAT GETS BROKEN DOWN, YOU KNOW,
IN MOST STATES - I ASSUME IDAHO AS WELL - YOU KNOW, THE BIG
MANDATE OF THE STATE IS AN END-OF-THE-YEAR ASSESSMENT
REQUIRED THROUGH NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, AND SO THERE'S ONE YEAR,
ONE DAY, MAYBE TWO, THAT THERE'S AN ASSESSMENT OUT OF 180-DAY,
ROUGHLY, SCHOOL YEAR.
SO, NOW WHAT LEADS UP TO THAT MIGHT BE A WHOLE BATTERY OF
OTHER ASSESSMENTS TO MAKE SURE KIDS ARE READY FOR THAT TEST.
SO, I DON'T THINK THE STATE - I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK THAT THE
STATE MANDATE OF AN ASSESSMENT ANNUALLY TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT
PROGRESS IS BEING MADE IS - FRANKLIN: TOO ONEROUS.
SMITH: - IS TOO ONEROUS AT ALL.
AND AN ASSESSMENT - YOU'VE GOT TO TELL ME, WHERE IN LIFE DO YOU
GO AFTER K-12 SCHOOL, AFTER GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL,
WHERE DO YOU GO THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE MET WITH SOME FORM
OF PRETTY IMPORTANT ASSESSMENT, WHETHER IT BE COLLEGE OR WHETHER
IT BE A MEDICAL DEGREE, A LAW DEGREE, A LICENSURE TO BE A
WELDER?
WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GO THAT - AND SO ASSESSMENTS IN OUR
SOCIETY AND IN LIFE IN GENERAL, ARE PRETTY IMPORTANT ELEMENTS
THAT KIDS NEED TO BE READY FOR.
DRISCOLL: SO, I DISAGREE SLIGHTLY WITH
MY COLLEAGUE, ALTHOUGH, THE FLORIDA DATA IS JUST FABULOUS,
BY THE WAY.
FRANKLIN: YOU SAID YOU CAN ACTUALLY TRACK A STUDENT ALL THE
WAY THROUGH - DRISCOLL: OH, YEAH.
SMITH: YES, WE CAN.
FRANKLIN: FROM KINDERGARTEN INTO THE JOB MARKET.
DRISCOLL: THEY USED FLORIDA'S DATA, IT'S JUST TERRIFIC STUFF.
BUT I WOULD DISAGREE.
I THINK - I THINK THERE IS TOO MUCH TESTING MANDATED BY THE
FEDS.
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO TEST EVERY YEAR 3 THROUGH 8 AT THE
STATE LEVEL.
I THINK YOU COULD TEST - WE USED TO TEST 4, 6 AND 8 IN READING,
AND MATH, 3, 5 AND 7 IN READING, AND THEN LET THE LOCALS USE
FORMATIVE ASSESSMENT, ETCETERA.
IT'S MORE THAN ONE OR TWO DAYS BY THE TIME YOU DO SCIENCE AND
HISTORY AND - FRANKLIN: THAT'S WHAT I'VE
HEARD.
IT'S MORE THAN - DRISCOLL: - LEAD UP.
AND, OF COURSE, PEOPLE FEEL THEY HAVE TO TEACH TO THE TEST
BECAUSE OF THE PRESSURE AND SO FORTH AND SO ON.
SO, I THINK THAT - THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT'S SOMEWHAT
LEGITIMATE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, FAR MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT, IF PEOPLE
WANT TO SAY THERE'S TOO MUCH TESTING, THERE'S TOO LITTLE
ANALYSIS OF THE DATA.
WE HAVE A WONDERFUL EXAMPLE IN BOSTON.
ORCHARD GARDENS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.
FIVE YEARS AGO, IT WAS THE LOWEST-PERFORMING SCHOOL IN
BOSTON AND INHERITED 50 PERCENT OF THE KIDS FROM THE POOREST
SCHOOL IN BOSTON IN ROXBURY, POOREST CHILDREN INTO THE
SCHOOL, SO THEY HAD A LOW-PERFORMING SCHOOL, AND THEN
THEY HAD LOW-PERFORMING KIDS COME IN, SO THE MIX WAS STRANGE.
THEY ARE NOW THE HIGHEST-PERFORMING - THEY HAD
THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF INCREASE.
WELL, IF YOU TALK TO THE PRINCIPAL, WHO'S A NEW
PRINCIPAL, THE WAY HE CHANGED IT, I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, HE
CHANGED A LOT OF THE TEACHERS AND SO FORTH, BUT IT WAS ALL
FOCUSED ON THE DATA.
HE HAS THE DATA ON THE - AS YOU WALK IN THE SCHOOL, HERE ARE THE
RESULTS.
SO, HIS FOURTH GRADE TEACHERS SIT DOWN, AND WE GET THE RESULTS
BACK - AND BY THE WAY, THE RESULTS ARE BY QUESTION SO YOU
KNOW HOW MANY KIDS GOT THE QUESTION RIGHT OR WRONG.
THEY EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY CHOSE AS THE WRONG -IF THERE'S A
MULTIPLE CHOICE--ANSWER FOR MULTIPLE CHOICE.
THEY DOVE INTO THE DATA AND, AS A RESULT OF USING THAT DATA,
CHANGED INSTRUCTION.
THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ENOUGH.
SO, AS MUCH AS I SYMPATHIZE WITH TOO MUCH TESTING, IT REALLY
BOTHERS ME THAT WE HAVE ALL THIS DATA THAT SCHOOLS - SOME SCHOOLS
USE IN A WONDERFUL WAY, OTHER SCHOOLS KIND OF IGNORE, AND
THAT'S HIS PROBLEM.
FRANKLIN: LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER KIND OF TESTING WHICH
IS VERY CONTROVERSIAL AS WELL, WHICH IS TESTING OF TEACHERS,
WHETHER IT'S TESTING THEIR CONTENT KNOWLEDGE OR THEIR
PEDAGOGY, YOU KNOW.
THERE IS JUST A LOT OF RANCOR RIGHT NOW AROUND THIS ISSUE, A
LOT OF FEAR, A LOT OF, YOU KNOW.
SMITH: YEAH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE IS - UNDERSTANDABLY,
THERE'S CONCERN, PARTICULARLY WITH EDUCATORS, ABOUT THIS
PRACTICE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT IS TRUE THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT IN
GETTING A BETTER RESULT WITH CHILDREN IS GOING TO BE THE
QUALITY OF THE TEACHERS IN OUR CLASSROOM, AND SO WHETHER IT BE
ON THE LICENSURE SIDE OR THE GRADUATE - THE COLLEGE DEGREE
THAT IS EARNED AND THE RIGOR TO GET THAT DEGREE, TO GET THE BEST
TALENT OUT OF COLLEGE AND INTO OUR CLASSROOMS AND INCREASING
THAT TRAJECTORY IS GOING TO BE CRITICAL FOR IDAHO OR ANY STATE
IN THE COUNTRY.
THE SECOND IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PERFORMANCE IN THE CLASSROOM
MATCHES THE QUALITY WE SAY THAT THAT TEACHER HAS.
AND IN GENERAL, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, MOST EVALUATIONS FOR
TEACHERS ARE STELLAR.
I MEAN, WE DON'T - WE DON'T - WE DON'T HAVE A BAD TEACHER OUT
THERE, AND THEY JUST DON'T EXIST.
YET, OUR KIDS ARE COMING IN AT LESS THAN 50 PERCENT PROFICIENT.
AND SO THERE IS A DISCONNECT, AND I DO - YOU KNOW, I'VE ALWAYS
BEEN A STRONG ADVOCATE THAT AT LEAST A PORTION OF A TEACHER'S
WORK, AS WITH ANYBODY ELSE'S WORK, YOUR WORK, I WOULD
IMAGINE, HAS GOT TO BE TIED TO THE WORK YOU'RE DOING.
AND SO WHETHER THAT BE THROUGH AN ASSESSMENT OR OTHER FORMS OF
MEASURES, SAMPLES OF STUDENT WORK, OTHER KINDS OF WAYS, BUT
THERE NEEDS TO BE A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE
ASKED TO DO, PAID TO DO BY THE STATE, ARE YOU MAKING A
DIFFERENCE WITH THE CHILDREN THAT COME IN WITHOUT THOSE
SKILLS?
DO THEY LEAVE WITH THOSE SKILLS?
DRISCOLL: SO, OUR WHOLE LAW WAS BASED ON THREE VERY SIMPLE
PRINCIPLES; HIGHER STANDARDS AND EXPECTATIONS FOR STUDENTS,
AND THAT WAS OUR TESTING PROGRAM, INCLUDING A TENTH GRADE
TEST - FRANKLIN: HIGH-STAKES TESTS.
DRISCOLL: - THEY HAD TO PASS TO GET A
DIPLOMA, HIGH STANDARDS - HIGHER STANDARDS AND EXPECTATIONS FOR
SCHOOLS AND DISTRICTS, AND WE HAD ACCOUNTABILITY OF MEASURES
THEN, AND THEN HIGHER STANDARDS AND EXPECTATIONS FOR EDUCATORS.
AND BY THE WAY, THIS ISSUE ABOUT EVERY TEACHER ACROSS THE COUNTRY
BEING RATED HIGHLY, I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT'S THE TEACHER'S
PROBLEM.
I THINK THAT'S THE PRINCIPALS.
TEACHERS GET BLAMED FOR THAT, WHICH I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD.
BUT - SO WE INSTITUTED A TEACHER TEST.
NEVER HAD IT BEFORE IN MASSACHUSETTS.
VERY UNPOPULAR.
AND, YET, 61 PERCENT OF OUR INITIAL CANDIDATES - AND WE
IMPLEMENTED IT IN THE WRONG WAY.
IT'S WHY I BECAME COMMISSIONER, SO I'M ALWAYS HAPPY FOR THE
MISTAKES OF OTHERS BEFORE ME.
BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE PILOTED IT, AND IT SHOULD HAVE - IT DOESN'T
HAVE TO BE ONEROUS.
FRANKLIN: WHICH, BY THE WAY, THE TEACHERS ARE SAYING ABOUT COMMON
CORE.
DRISCOLL: RIGHT.
FRANKLIN: IT SHOULD BE PILOTED.
DRISCOLL: AND IT IS BEING PILOTED.
IN FACT, IDAHO KIDS TOOK IT AS A PILOT THIS PAST YEAR.
FRANKLIN: YEAH. RIGHT.
DRISCOLL: SO - AND - BUT WHAT IT REVEALED AFTER ALL THE DUST
SETTLED AND WE - WAS THAT TOO MANY TEACHERS DID NOT HAVE THE
CONTENT KNOWLEDGE THEY NEEDED, PARTICULARLY IN MATHEMATICS AT
THE ELEMENTARY LEVEL WAS A MAJOR ONE, AND READING, BY THE WAY,
THE ACTUAL CONTENT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HOW TO READ.
SO, I THINK TEACHER TESTING PROVED ITSELF IN MASSACHUSETTS,
BECAUSE LOOK AT OUR MATH RESULTS.
AND I THINK TEACHERS WOULD ADMIT, EVEN THOUGH THEY DIDN'T
LIKE THE TEST - FRANKLIN: HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL.
DRISCOLL: - ONCE THEY GOT USED TO IT
AND KNEW THEY HAD TO TAKE IT - AND WE WEREN'T BACKING OFF, SO
THEY HAD TO PASS JUST LIKE THE KIDS.
WE WEREN'T BACKING OFF.
SO, YOU HAVE TO MEET THE EXPECTATIONS.
THEY WERE REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS.
IT WORKS.
FRANKLIN: THIS ISSUE, THIS EDUCATION
POLICY, IS SO TENSE AT TIMES, HAS BEEN IN OUR STATE, IS
NATIONALLY RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK, AND JUST, YOU KNOW, THERE
WILL BE SOME TEACHERS WHO WILL LOOK AT YOUR RESUMES AND SAY,
"HEY, YOU'RE BOTH ASSOCIATED WITH VERY CONSERVATIVE GROUPS,
FORDHAM INSTITUTE IN YOUR CASE AND JEB BUSH'S CHIEFS FOR
CHANGE, WHICH IDAHO SUPERINTENDENT TOM LUNA WAS
ASSOCIATED WITH.
THESE ARE PEOPLE, IN THEIR VIEW - THESE ARE INSTITUTIONS, IN
THEIR VIEW, THAT DON'T SUPPORT TEACHERS, THAT ARE FOR THINGS
THAT ARE ANATHEMA TO THEM.
SMITH: WELL, I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE.
YOU KNOW, THE CHIEFS FOR CHANGE AND OTHER GROUPS, GOVERNOR BUSH,
INCREDIBLE ADVOCATES FOR CLASSROOM TEACHERS, AND THEY'RE
ALSO INCREDIBLE ADVOCATES FOR CHILDREN, AND THEY WANT THE BEST
FOR BOTH.
AND SO I THINK THESE POLICY CHANGES AND ADJUSTMENTS ARE WITH
AN EXPECTATION THAT WE CAN DO BETTER AS A NATION, THAT WE CAN
DO BETTER WITH OUR EDUCATIONAL ENTERPRISE.
FRANKLIN: THERE'S A FEAR IT'S MOVING TOWARDS PRIVITIZATION,
OR I'VE SEEN WHERE IT'S LIKE CORPORATIZATION OF EDUCATION,
YOU KNOW, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM AS WE
KNOW IT IS -
DRISCOLL: THIS FEAR-MONGERING IS AMAZING TO ME.
I'M NOT SURE IT HAPPENS IN ANY OTHER - IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T
HAPPEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
I MEAN, WHEN THEY GO TO SET STANDARDS, THEY SET STANDARDS
AND THEY SIT ON A PAGE, AND PEOPLE LIKE THEM, AND THEY
FIGURE OUT HOW TO IMPLEMENT THEM.
HERE, WE DEBATE THEM FOR TEN YEARS.
WE ACCUSE THEM OF COMMUNISM AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
IT'S CRAZY.
FOR THE RECORD, I'M A REGISTERED DEMOCRAT IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND I
KID CHESTER FINN OF THE FORDHAM FOUNDATION ABOUT THAT ALL THE
TIME.
ERIC AND I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS, THE IDEA OF WORKING FOR A
REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION.
I WORKED FOR MITT ROMNEY AND TED KENNEDY AT THE SAME TIME AND
NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, BECAUSE THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT POLITICS.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF ISSUES.
FRANKLIN: SO, HOW DO - DRISCOLL: IN EDUCATION, IT'S
HIGHER STANDARDS AND EXPECTATIONS.
FRANKLIN: HOW DO YOU GET THAT OUT OF IT,
BECAUSE WE SEE IN OUR STATE IT'S HIGHLY POLITICIZED, AND
THEN - DRISCOLL: I THINK YOU HAVE TO
JUST - FRANKLIN: -THE LOGJAM HAPPENS.
DRISCOLL: YEAH.
NO, I THINK YOU JUST CAN'T GET DEFLECTED BY IT.
YOU HAVE TO - YOU HAVE TO JUST GO FULL SPEED AHEAD.
IF YOU - IF YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU'RE DOING - I ALWAYS SAY I
GET - WHEN WE INSTITUTED THE TEST, I GET BURNED IN EFFIGY.
THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT -
FRANKLIN: SERIOUSLY.
YOU GOT BURNED IN EFFIGY.
DRISCOLL: YEAH.
BUT THE INTERESTING THING IS IT DOESN'T HURT.
SO, YOU KNOW - FRANKLIN: MEANING BECAUSE YOU -
DRISCOLL: BECAUSE THEY BURNED SOMETHING AND IT'S NOT YOU.
SMITH: IT DOES TAKE - IT DOES TAKE REALLY STRONG LEADERSHIP TO
DRIVE THROUGH IT.
YOU KNOW, OUR - ANYONE THAT CHOOSES TO USE OUR CHILDREN FOR
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE SHOULD BE SHAMED.
IT IS ABOUT - IT IS TOO IMPORTANT TO THE LIVES THAT WE
HAVE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERY DAY TO MAKE THIS A POLITICAL
FOOTBALL, AND SO THERE SHOULD BE AN ACTIVE EFFORT ON - OUT OF ALL
PARTIES AND INDEPENDENTS TO REALLY FIND COMMON GROUND AROUND
WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE BEST SERVICE FOR CHILDREN.
AND, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE WE HAVE THE BEST TEACHERS IN THE
CLASSROOM IS NOT A POLITICAL AGENDA.
MAKING SURE THAT OUR CHILDREN HAVE HIGH STANDARDS AND HIGH
EXPECTATIONS SHOULD NOT BE A POLITICAL AGENDA.
MAKING SURE THAT WE KNOW WHETHER OR NOT OUR KIDS ARE ACHIEVING
AND OUR TEACHERS ARE PERFORMING AND ARE ADEQUATELY FUNDED SHOULD
NOT BE A POLITICAL AGENDA.
FRANKLIN: TWO OTHER POINTS I WANTED TO GET TO, WE'RE RAPIDLY
RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
IDAHO HAS A PRETTY GOOD GRADUATION RATE, ALL THINGS
CONSIDERED.
LOOKING AT OTHER STATES, IT'S STILL NOT PERFECT.
IT'S SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 80 AND 90 PERCENT.
THE "GO ON" RATE, AS IT'S CALLED, TO COLLEGE, NOT - NOT
GOOD - AS GOOD AT - YOU HAVE 47 PERCENT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
GOING TO COLLEGE, AND IT DROPS EVEN LOWER WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW
MANY HIGH SCHOOL FRESHMAN ACTUALLY EVENTUALLY COMPLETE
COLLEGE, SOMETHING LIKE ONE IN TEN FROM SOME DATA.
THIS IS IMPORTANT, I ASSUME - SMITH: ABSOLUTELY.
FRANKLIN: TO BOTH OF YOU WHEN YOU LOOK AT DISTRICTS IN THEIR
FUNCTIONING, IS HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE ACTUALLY GOING,
BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY COLLEGE IS NOT - SHOULDN'T BE A
SMITH: WELL, I THINK - YEAH.
DRISCOLL: WELL, ERIC WILL TALK ABOUT
THE TREMENDOUS DATA HE HAS, AND SO HE KNOWS EXACTLY INTO THE
WORKFORCE.
BUT THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM ACROSS - IT'S NOT JUST IDAHO'S
PROBLEM.
THERE'S A PROBLEM IN MASSACHUSETTS.
THIS IS WHAT THEY TALK ABOUT, DEVELOPMENTAL COURSES OR
REMEDIATION.
YOU HAVE LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KIDS WHO GRADUATE
FROM HIGH SCHOOL.
IN OUR CASE, WE KNOW THEY AT LEAST PASSED OUR TEST -
FRANKLIN: RIGHT.
DRISCOLL: SO THEY HAVE BASIC SKILLS.
THEY GO ON TO COMMUNITY COLLEGES.
THEY TAKE SOME KIND OF AN ENTRANCE TEST, ACCUPLACE OR
SOMETHING.
THEY DON'T PASS.
THEY GO INTO NON-CREDIT-BEARING COURSES.
THEY DROP OUT.
AND THEY USE UP THEIR FINANCIAL AID.
IT'S A TERRIBLE - THIS REMEDIATION AND DEVELOPMENTAL
COURSES IS A TERRIBLE NATIONAL PROBLEM.
SO, WE'VE GOT - AND THE K-TO-12 SYSTEM HAS TO OWN THIS, BECAUSE
WE'RE SENDING KIDS OUT, AND THEY OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO AT LEAST
PERSIST, AND THEY'RE NOT.
NOW, THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS OBVIOUSLY INVOLVED, SOCIETY AND
OTHER THINGS.
FRANKLIN: HOW MUCH IT COST AND OTHER THINGS.
DRISCOLL: BUT IT'S A BIG PROBLEM AND-
FRANKLIN: ANOTHER CHALLENGE JUST THIS YEAR, WE ARE NOW
MAJORITY/MINORITY IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
SMITH: THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BIG PROBLEM.
I THINK - FRANKLIN: THAT WAS A QUESTION.
IS IT ANOTHER CHALLENGE?
SMITH: YOU HAVE DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFTS WHICH HAVE PROBABLY BEEN
GOING ON FOR DECADES.
MAYBE IT'S ACCELERATING, MAYBE NOT.
YOU KNOW, FLORIDA CERTAINLY IS AN EXAMPLE OF A STATE THAT HAS
HAD HUGE DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFTS, AND WE DO SO QUITE OFTEN, WITH
REGULARITY, HAVE DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFTS OF HAITIANS, CUBANS,
CENTRAL AMERICA, SOUTH AMERICA, EUROPEANS, AND SO WE -
FRANKLIN: BUT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE PART OF THAT IS -
SMITH: THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS HUGE.
IS HUGE.
FRANKLIN: AND THAT'S A CHALLENGE.
SMITH: AND SO, AGAIN, MAKING SURE THAT YOU HAVE SOLID
RESEARCH-BASED DECISION-MAKING, DATA-DRIVEN DECISION-MAKING,
AROUND THE BEST STATE POLICY AND INSTRUCTIONAL STRATEGIES TO
SUPPORT SCHOOLS TO DELIVER WITH CHILDREN AND HOW QUICKLY YOU
EXPECT KIDS TO BE ABLE TO MOVE TO ENGLISH-BASED PROFICIENCY AND
THEN MEASURE THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF THAT.
ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND - A LOT OF
CRITICS FOR IT.
ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS THAT IT DID WAS IT PUT A VERY CLEAR
SPOTLIGHT ON THE INEQUITIES THAT EXISTED BETWEEN LANGUAGE
LEARNERS AND POVERTY AND MINORITIES AND SPECIAL NEEDS,
AND IT ELEVATED A GREAT DEAL OF OUR KIDS.
FRANKLIN: THE DISCUSSION.
SMITH: SO, I THINK MONITORING THAT WORK IS GOING TO BE KEY.
FRANKLIN: WE'VE GOT - YEAH.
DRISCOLL: YEAH, LET ME JUST TELL YOU THIS -
FRANKLIN: VERY BRIEFLY.
DRISCOLL: BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW.
WE ARE LOSING GROUND WHEN YOU LOOK INTERNATIONALLY, WITHOUT
QUESTION.
MORE AND MORE COUNTRIES ARE GOING BY US IN STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT, AND SO WE HAVE PROBLEMS.
BUT AS WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, THERE ARE POCKETS OF ACHIEVEMENT
EVERYWHERE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT AMERICA, AMERICAN STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT,
BASED ON NAEP TESTING LONG-TERM TREND, 9-YEAR-OLDS AND
13-YEAR-OLDS, IT HAS ACTUALLY INCREASED OVER THE LAST TEN
YEARS FOR ALL GROUPS; WHITES, HISPANICS, ASIANS.
ALL GROUPS HAVE - BLACKS - HAVE ALL INCREASED.
FRANKLIN: SO, THERE'S SOME OPTIMISM.
DRISCOLL: SO, WE'RE DOING BETTER IN TERMS OF ACHIEVEMENT.
THE PROBLEM IS THE MIX.
THERE'S LESS WHITES AND SO FORTH, SO IT BRINGS THE OVERALL
SCORE DOWN.
BUT, ACTUALLY, ACHIEVEMENT IS IMPROVING SOME.
SMITH: IN FLORIDA, OUR HISPANIC STUDENTS OUTPERFORM MANY WHITE
STUDENTS IN OTHER STATES ON NAEP.
DRISCOLL: SO, THERE ARE THINGS TO BUILD ON, BUT WE NEED TO GET
CONSISTENT, GET THE POLITICS OUT OF IT, FOCUS ON HIGH STANDARDS
AND EXPECTATIONS, THE DATA, AND REALLY FOCUS ON STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT AND NOT THIS OTHER STUFF.
FRANKLIN: WELL, GREAT.
THANKS SO MUCH.
AND BOTH OF YOU HAVE GENEROUSLY AGREED TO STAY FOR A LITTLE BIT
LONGER TO DO - TO TAPE AN EXTRA WITH ME.
I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THE MAIN
PROGRAM.
YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING TO DR. DAVID DRISCOLL, THE FORMER
COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION FOR MASSACHUSETTS, AND DR. ERIC
SMITH, THE FORMER COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION FOR FLORIDA.
FOR MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE CHECK OUT THE DIALOGUE WEBSITE.
JUST GO TO IDAHOPTV.ORG AND CLICK ON DIALOGUE.
THAT'S ALSO WHERE YOU'LL FIND THE EXTRA THAT I JUST MENTIONED.
THANKS FOR TUNING IN.
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