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Carlos Tourinho de Abreu is the author of Tabua.
Carlos is a big fan of the Brazilian Portuguese language.
Today, he will be speaking about literature and his relationship with the dry lands in the countryside of Bahia (state of Brazil).
Arteletra will be back soon.
Hello Carlos. Thanks for coming!
It’s my pleasure. I came directly from Luxembourg to São Paulo. It’s really a pleasure to be here.
Carlos, you are from Salvador (capital of Bahia). You were born and raised there, and today you are living in Luxembourg. Do you miss Brazil at all?
Of course I miss Brazil a lot. I miss the warmth of the Brazilian people and I miss hearing and speaking Brazilian Portuguese.
Even though there are lots of Portuguese immigrants who live in Luxemburg, Brazilian Portuguese has a different “melody”, if you know what I mean.
I can imagine; mostly because you are a “baiano” (born in the State of Bahia); they are well known for their strong regional accent and cultural bonds.
Exactly!
Many Portuguese immigrants live in Luxembourg?
Many indeed! They are the biggest group of immigrants living there. It is easy to meet them and speak Portuguese; but with the European accent of course (laughs).
It’s funny because we say that they have an accent, but in fact, Portuguese is their language; they invented it.
They say that we sing when we speak Brazilian Portuguese - maybe they’re right!
So we speak the “musical” Portuguese (smiles).
In your book you demonstrate a great familiarity with the problems faced by the poor people living in the Northeast region of Brazil.
This familiarity developed out of a process of research or personal experience?
Mostly out of personal experience. Since I was little, I visited these regions. My mother comes from the countryside of Bahia. She was raised in Piritiba and later migrated to the capital.
Lajedo do Tabocal, the small town where my novel takes place, really exists. I have been there many times.
I was practically raised there, and I have seen how people suffer with my own eyes.
I am still in contact with some of them.
It’s strange that Brazil hasn’t changed much since the 80’s – the time period that my story takes place. The social problems are still very contemporaneous, mostly in the Northeast of Brazil. The reader will surely feel this when reading Tabua.
We will come back to this topic again later. You have written the book in Luxembourg, haven’t you?
Actually I started the book at the University of Princeton.
My wife and I went to the US because she was conducting research in Princeton for 3 months so I took this chance to start Tabua.
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to live from literature alone.
It is indeed difficult to live from literature in Brazil. Only the big authors can.
Maybe one day, who knows…(laughs).
So it was in Princeton that I started my new book project. Actually, this is not my first novel; it’s the second written, but the first one published.
I started Tabua in the psychology library of Princeton and I finished it at the University of Oxford, in England.
Wow!
It is indeed funny that I wrote Tabua in the libraries of two well known universities. My wife worked as a researcher in Oxford at the time.
I finished Tabua in six months and after started to work for the University of Luxembourg.
That’s nice, you worked in many different places…
Yes. But even though I was physically in the US and Europe, my soul was 100% in the dry lands of Bahia - Brazil.
Aguinaldo Silva Santos, the narrator of Tabua is a very sympathetic character.
Yes, his nickname is Guina!
He was born and raised in Lajedo do Tabocal, in the central south of Bahia, a real location.
What is autobiographical in Guina?
Not much actually. He is a combination of many different Guinas who really exist in Lajedo do Tabocal.
Some of them are my good friends. They unfortunately have a very tough existence and most of them have a similar life to Guina in the 80’s.
Guina was inspired on them. My characters are generally not based on one specific person, but on many different ones.
So you collect different characteristics and…
...and transform them in one specific character.
That’s creation - you mold your characters in the way you want. You make it very clear that your novel is fictional. However, I felt that you present a kind of “snapshot” of the reality of the Northeast of Brazil.
Do you feel that this reality has substantially changed from the 80’s to nowadays?
That’s in fact the major social criticism of the book. The reader will have the sensation that she/he is reading a modern story, not a story from the 80’s.
That was exactly the sensation that I had!
That’s because not much has changed since then. The social reality of the countryside that I describe in the book is still very similar.
That’s sad.
Indeed, it’s sad to realize that the problems are still the same. The countryside of Bahia for example is struggling with a historical dry season right now.
Our government seems to be shutting its eyes and the people living in these regions appear to be forgotten.
The government only provides them with the minimum. The output of this lack of care is easily noticeable on the streets of the big Brazilian cities.
When I came here today for instance, I noticed that many of the people that deal with extreme poverty in the northeast of Brazil end up on the streets or in the slums of São Paulo.
I am sure that many watching this program understand what I’m talking about. Just get into your car and drive through your city and you will see with your own eyes what I mean.
The poor from the countryside of the Northeast generally migrate to the major city of Salvador first and after often end up in São Paulo.
Or in Rio de Janeiro...
Yes, in the big centers of Brazil!
And the same exodus happens in the rural areas of Bahia, I presume.
The dry seasons are always haunting the people from there. If there’s nothing to harvest there are no job. What are their options than? Living from the welfare of the government…?
That´s bad! Besides your critical approach toward the social problems of Brazil, you manifest great knowledge about the regional character trades of the people from the countryside of Bahia.
In your book you use many different regional “slangs”. How come you are so familiar with these ways of speaking?
As I mentioned, I used to go to Lajedo do Tabocal and other towns in that area like Maracás and Itirucu frequently; and my mother of course is from Piritiba.
Another countryside of Bahia.
When I went there I was confronted with the way of speech of the people from there and often ended up speaking just like them.
I think the unique way of speech of the “sertanejos” is very beautiful and represents a great cultural identity and richness.
I thus incorporated their ways of expression into my book. They are marked in italics, and reflect the way that the people speak in their daily lives.
Half way through the book there’s a big change in the storyline. Guina arrives in São Paulo and starts a different life.
I felt that the second half of your novel resembled a thriller. The book starts as a regional tale but then takes a different, more fictional turn.
What inspired this change?
I am a big fan of cinema. I like both big Hollywood movies but also independent productions.
I decided to give my novel a similar dynamic to a film. I wanted to keep my readers curious so that they want to go on reading.
I was very happy with some feedback that I received. Some readers told me that they read the book in one go because they just could not stop reading.
The same thing happened to me. I really wanted to know what would happen next and couldn’t stop.
I decide to take this approach because I did not want that the novel would become too “heavy”. It is already filled with social criticism and I didn’t want the reader to have the sensation of reading a political newspaper article.
Yes, you criticize and also entertain with a nice fictional touch.
Arteletras now takes a quick break and when we’re back Carlos Tourinho de Abreu reveals a bit more about his writing.
Arteletras is back with Carlos Tourinho de Abreu, author of Tabua.
Carlos will be speaking more about Guina who starts a life in poverty, and later goes to São Paulo and even the US.
Do you think Guina's story is a reflection of the saga of real Brazilians - people that are always full of hope and never give up?
Yes, it is partially based on them. Guina leaves Lajedo because of a tragedy to start a new life, however this change is only an illusion of prosperity.
There is a dark reality behind the scene of his new life.
Yes, there is something very distressing.
After leaving Lajedo he goes to an overpopulated gold mine, Serra Pelada - the place that received a nickname “the human ant-hill”
I was amazed at the detail in which you describe this place.
I’ve never been in Serra Pelada, but I researched it a lot. I watched documentaries, read articles, historic news, and so on.
It really was a “human ant-hill”.
People were indeed treated like working ants. (Carlos mentions some examples given by reporters that went to Serra Pelada in the 80’s, among them Fernando Meirelles a famous Brazilian movie director)
There is something interesting that Meirelles and his friend Marcelo Tas said, that I mention in the book and that the readers will recognize when reading Tabua.
Carlos, in your story you show the disparity that exists between the big farm owners and the poor people that work for them.
You show the dreadful social situation of the poor without many opportunities in the countryside of Bahia. Is this social inequality still common over there?
You are right! There is a difference, however, between the big farm owners from today compared to the old ones. Btw, I wrote about the old ones in my book.
The new ones are no longer the type of exaggerated big farm owners that you could find in a Jorge Amado novel for example.
The main character that represents the farm owner in my book is inspired on many different farmers that I knew in the course of my life. They still exist and continue to profit from the humble people that work for them.
In Europe, the farm owners literally put their hands to run their farms without many employees to help them. My wife’s grandparents were farmers in Europe, and they had to work very hard.
In contrast, the Brazilian farm owners generally manage - they are more like business man who sometimes do not even know how to milk a cow.
They therefore need cheap labor leading to the exploitation of the less favored.
In Europe the agriculture is largely mechanized.
Exactly.
They have a greater productivity in a smaller piece of land.
They need to work in this way, because manual labor is very expensive in Europe.
They also do not have the space that we have.
Exactly, they have less space and need to be productive. It is easy to understand why their labor is much more expensive than ours. Their governments don’t allow this absurd class exploitation that happens here in Brazil.
The minimum salary in Luxembourg for example is around 1500 Euros. In Brazil it is 630 Reais (around 300 dollars). What can you possibly do with this?
Yes, very different realities indeed.
In my opinion, the Brazilians need to wake-up and fight for their rights. Like the European did in the past.
I was pretty captivated by your main character Guina. He is a wonderful example of the people that are oppressed by the Brazilian system.
Was he aware that he was being exploited?
Unfortunately not! Guina is a typical “caboco” or “caboclo” (mix raced of Indian and white)...
He was illiterate, wasn’t he?
Exactly. By the way when I said “caboco” it is the way that they speak in the countryside. The right ways is “caboclo” - one more of the language regionalisms that I mentioned previously.
Guina was born in a huge family, with many siblings...
That was common over there.
...his mother was Indian and his father white. His father left when he was young.
He counted on his mom to survive.
Then, there is a terrible tragedy - common in the life of many Brazilians. However, these news aren’t published in the papers.
Why? It is not convenient!
It is not interesting to show the “ugly”.
The story is quite dynamic. It stretches from the countryside to São Paulo and the US.
Did you have a plan to develop the story in this way, or did it just flowed naturally?
This is an interesting question. I always had the end and the beginning of the story in mind.
But I think that the middle part flowed naturally.
I don’t have a diagram or anything like that, even though I hold two Masters degree in Finance and generally need to be very pragmatic in other apescts of my life (laughts).
But when literature is concerned you don’t plan as much…
No, I let my imagination flow! Of course I touch on some specific topics that I planned, but…
You create a Society of Atheist Assassins in Tabua. ..
Exactly!
...and Guina ends up being a key figure in this organization.
Yes, he plays a very influential part…
At some point he starts to be wanted by some people…
Yes. He kind of fell into this organization…
He didn’t have a clue about what normally happened there…
Yes, he fell into this society and barely knew that he had something to do with it. It’s an ancient society that came from the South of Europe during the great migration times…
You blended the story well!
Everything is of course a big imaginary tale! I am not from the Society of Atheist Assassins (laughs).
Among all the characters that you created there is one that sparked my interest in a special way - Mr. Fran. What did you intend to show with the story of Mr. Fran?
Actually, Mr Fran…
He was the son of a big farm owner, wasn’t he? However, he was very different to the others…
As I said before, none of my characters are 100% inspired on one single person. But, Mr. Fran has lots in common with my own father.
He is already dead, but he was the person that the poor people from Lajedo do Tabocal could count on. I have seen him helping them many times.
So, you got inspiration from your dad?
In real life, he was really beloved by the people from Lajedo.
The character, Mr. Fran, was aware of the people’s problems, even though he was the son of a rich farmer. He was quite a generous character.
The story of Mr. Fran, doesn’t have anything to do with my real life in Lajedo. The book is 100% fictional. But Mr. Fran is based on the good example of honesty, respect and neighborly love from my father.
That seems to be quite uncommon in these places.
Yes, but there are still good Samaritans that help the people over there. If we wait for the government to help them… well, I don’t think…
… that they will fulfill its obligation.
Carlos I’d like that you read a small paragraph of your novel to show us the typical way that the people from the countryside of Bahia speak. Can you please read it for us?
Sure!
Just a small section, and we can after comment on the unusual language that they use in the countryside of Bahia.
I will try to read a small segment from a character that was inspired on them.
(Carlos reads a part of the novel in which the regionalism of the speech from the countryside of Bahia are evident)
You can see the ways that some words are pronounced.
Yes, they have their own specific way, especially the vowels. It is very unusual indeed.
Normally, when I spelled words in the exact ways that they are pronounced in the countryside, I marked them in italic.
I’ve noticed! You always use footnote when you are using an unfamiliar regional terminology. However, here in São Paulo we are kind of used to the Northeastern ways of speaking. There are many migrants from Bahia over here.
Yes, there are many.
I can give examples like… (Maria gives an example) (Carlos agrees and repeats it using the original accent from Bahia)
Carlos, you told me that this is your second novel. So there is a first one than. What is it about?
It is a Medieval Saga! Completely different from Tabua.
Do you have any interest in publish it?
Sure, but this isn’t my priority right now. My priority for now is trying to publish my third novel! It was recently written.
You’re working on it.
No, actually I already finished it, but I still haven’t defined the exact title.
And what is it about?
It’s a great story that again takes place partially in the countryside of Bahia, more specifically in the homeland of my mom - Piritiba. I mentioned it before, remember?
I went there many times when I was younger and of course this helped me to create the story.
In the novel I try to trace the journey of the European migration that happened at the end of the 19th century; from their departure until the point that they reach the countryside of Bahia.
It is important to mention that many insights for this new novel came from my mother’s own family.
As we are descendants of Europeans I tried to create a “Brazilian/South European” story, if you know what I mean.
Yes, again with a touch of blending that you like to do!
Yes, again full of great travels and interactions!
Tell us now, why did you choose the specific cover and the name Tabua. As far as I know Tabua is a plant.
Here in São Paulo we call it “Taboa”. (Southern Cattail or Cumbungi, in English). Why did you pick this name?
Tabua is a fictional place that Guina uses as his refuge. It’s the place that he goes to when everything goes wrong early in his life.
At this special location there are many of these plants (Tabuas) surrounding the lake.
Ah, now I remember. It all makes sense. There is a lake surrounded by “tabuas” and when he is sad he goes there to feel better…
… he contemplates the lake and thinks about his life…
And this place really exists?
There are many places in Lajedo that are very similar to the one that I imagined - Guina’s refuge. Just one more imaginary place.
Where he goes to comfort himself…
His pain goes away a bit when he is there.
Do you intend to translate your novel into French or another official language from Luxembourg?
I am definitely open for business. It is a bit tough to make this happen as this is my first published book, but …
But, there is the possibility?
I’d be immensely happy if I could translate it. Mostly, because my friends are always asking me when it will be translated into English, and other languages.
You should try to make this translation with an international publisher…
I am completely open to negotiate a translation and also to publish my third novel in Brazil, the one that is still without a title. It is a wonderful story.
Do you feel that the foreign market has any interest for Brazilian stories?
Sure!
Do they sell many books from Brazilian authors over there?
Paulo Coelho is a phenomenon! He is everywhere!
And besides him?
I think Jorge Amado is still being published... the Master Jorge Amado who wrote so well about Bahia. Therefore, I think there is space.
Then you have to fight for publishing over there.
Can I leave my contact?
Sure!
Thanks for the interview! Do you want to thank anybody?
I’d like to thank you very much. Also your entire production team!
And I would like to dedicate this interview and this novel to the 2 million people from Bahia and the Northeast who suffer with the worse dry season of the last 40 years.
This interview and this book are for you!
Let’s hope that these bad times don’t come back next year!
Fingers Crossed!
Success!
Thanks!
Carlos Tourinho de Abreu was with us today. Thanks for watching and see you next week.
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